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PvP Offence/Defence Stat Changes: Dev Explanation Needed


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#1 Poptip

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:59 AM

The latest patch notes state...

 

PvP

 

Items

  • Reduced the PvP Offense and Defense granted by Items by 84% to match the overall balance change to PvP Offense and Defense.

​However there is no corresponding explanation of what the change was that prompted this.

 

So what was the balance change that made the PvP stat so powerful that it required an 84% reduction and is the stat budget on PvP gear which was previously spent on the PvP stat spent on other stats on the gear?

 

​Sorry to ask this but the gear is not readily available on the ptr and I just don't have the time to grind the massive amounts to obtain it for testing when I'm still levelling a character on live

 

Thanks..



#2 Meerkat

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:16 PM

To answer your question, the value change is there because of a previous stat inflation and now we're making it more in line with other ratings based values. While it’s an 84% reduction in rating gained, the back end formula is changing to make up for the difference.

 

Normally, I would give you a comparison of what it means. Unfortunately, we are also introducing a new PvP stat combat calculation in this patch so comparisons would be irrelevant. The original post can be found here:

 

https://forums.wilds...vp-stat-update/

 

 

The TL/DR Version:

 

PvP Offense is now PvP Power

·         Directly influences your ability to deal damage in PvP and is directly countered by PvP Defense.

·         Directly influences your ability to heal while in PvP combat.

PvP Defense

·         Directly influences your ability to prevent damage in PvP.

 

In the previous system, PvP Offense did not directly counter PvP Defense. PvP Offense would simply reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's PvP Defense.

 

·         In the old system; if you if you grow PvP Offense and Defense at the same rate, the damage multiplier starts at ~87% infinitely goes toward 75%.

 

·         In the new system; PvP Power is directly countered by PvP Defense. If you have 1000 PvP Power and the opponent has 1000 PvP Defense, then they would negate each other.

 

 

PvP stats will now scale differently based on Open World or instanced based combat. 

·         We can tweak either independently without doing major harm to one another.

 

Additional Notes on the upcoming stat changes:

 

PvP Stat breakdown on the paperdoll will now show

 

 

Note: All Paperdoll percentages assume your opponent has 0 PvP stat, so it represents a maximum value.

·         PvP Damage

o    Shows damage efficiency while in Instanced combat. (Warplots, BG's, Arenas, etc)

o    Shows damage efficiency while in Open World combat.

·         PvP Healing

o    Shows healing efficiency while in Instanced combat. (Warplots, BG's, Arenas, etc)

o    Shows healing efficiency while in Open World combat.

·         PvP Defense

o    Shows damage reduction while in Instanced combat. (Warplots, BG's, Arenas, etc)

o    Shows damage reduction while in Open World combat.

 

Base Values

 

 

You will end up noticing certain values while naked. These values express your efficiency in PvP while on equal ground.

 

PvP Damage

 

·         Instanced : 85.00%

o    This value is the baseline.

o    If your PvP Power – Foe PvP Defense = 0, then you will deal 85% damage after all other mitigation calculations.

·         Open World : 100.00%

o    This value is the baseline.

o    If your PvP Power – Foe PvP Defense = 0, then you will deal 100% damage after all other mitigation calculations.

 

PvP Healing

 

·         Instanced : 52.75%

o    This value is the baseline for instanced PvP combat.

o    Your healing in Instanced PvP will heal for 52.75% of its current value after modifiers.

·         Open World : 85.00%

o    This value is the baseline for Open World combat.

o    Your healing in Open World PvP will heal for 85% of its current value after modifiers.

 

PvP Defense

 

·         Instanced : 15.00%

o    This value is the baseline for Instanced PvP Combat.

o    If their PvP Power – your PvP Defense = 0, then you will receive 15% less damage.

o    Which makes sense if you look at PvP Damage above, if they can only do 85% damage then inherently I take 15%.

·         Open World : 0%

o    This value is the baseline for Open World PvP Combat.

o    If their PvP Power – your PvP Defense = 0, then you will receive 0% less damage.

o    Which makes sense if you look at PvP Damage above, if they are is doing 100% damage then you aren’t receiving reduced damage.

 

 

As you gain rating these values are modified and adjusted on the tooltip. Please remember the percentages expressed are assuming a foe with no PvP stats.

For an Example let’s look at a player with these PvP stats as an example of relative power:

 

PvP Power:  4300

PvP Defense:  2350

 

PvP Damage Open World = 132.57%

PvP Damage Instanced = 111.06%

 

PvP Healing Open World = 94.78%

PvP Healing Instanced = 75%

 

PvP Defense Open World = 17.80%

PvP Defense Instanced = 29.24%

 

These are the relative power and numbers that are going into PTR. The system has been overhauled and we can better respond to balance adjustments as needed. So as we get more player feedback and testing, we can make quicker adjustments.

 

Thanks all!

 

 

Edited: Initially gave you the 4300 PvP Defense values instead of the 2350. That has been corrected.


Edited by Meerkat, 17 July 2014 - 04:47 PM.

Steven Engle - Lead Combat Designer - Carbine Studios


#3 Ayestes

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:34 PM

Is that last part correct?  Any chance you could give us the formula instead of us discerning it ourselves?  Excellent write-up though, I enjoyed reading it. 


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#4 Frezz

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

If you show us formula = best friend. Spread sheets are my friend.


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#5 Meerkat

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:48 PM

I made an edit because I based PvP Defense on 4300 instead of 2350.

 

As for formulas, sorry at this time we cannot give that out. 


Steven Engle - Lead Combat Designer - Carbine Studios


#6 Ayestes

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:49 PM

Now if only my PTR didn't say it was corrupted so I could discern that formula myself.... gah.....  

 

I mean I at least personally don't mind if you guys change it later, but we can totally figure it out from what we've got.  Unless there are IF statements in it or something crazy.  


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#7 Frezz

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

I made an edit because I based PvP Defense on 4300 instead of 2350.

 

As for formulas, sorry at this time we cannot give that out. 

 

May I ask why everything is super secret? Stuff not final yet I assume?


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#8 Mister Nibb

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:07 PM

What I really want to know is what is being done to pvp gear to make it preferential or even mandatory to succeed in pvp?  Right now, PVE gear trumps PVP gear by a longshot for raw damage/heal output.  Are there measures being taken to rectify this?



#9 TeoH

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:54 PM

What I really want to know is what is being done to pvp gear to make it preferential or even mandatory to succeed in pvp?  Right now, PVE gear trumps PVP gear by a longshot for raw damage/heal output.  Are there measures being taken to rectify this?

 

What do you think he just posted? You can take the following away from this:

 

- The value of PvP Defense is no longer reduced as the attacker's PvP Offense increases

- PvP Offense is now valuable to healers

- Both damage output and healing output sounds like it will be reduced substantially in instanced PvP, this has a big impact on class and comp balance for arena

 

 

The final question marks are on diminishing returns and the total contribution per piece. It was clear that DR was a major problem in the previous patch and this system appears to be designed in a way that will allow both stats to keep on scaling up linearly, so I would hope we have no more issues with DR. As long as the damage/healing/defense contribution per PvP item is superior to the extra stats you would get by wearing any PvE piece in that slot, we should be golden.



#10 Painraise

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:28 AM

Nice but how does this system stop 1,8k+ people from carrying 1k people? I dont see any improvements except that PvE and PvP (equip) is more seperated (which is btw. a good thing ofc.)!

 

But the biggest problem is that people who just reached lvl 50 and want to PvP cant get 1,8k+ without a carry. This obv. is not good. Is there a (real) solution in progress? And if so - how does it look like?

 

Thanks&Greetings.



#11 Tidder

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:57 AM

Am I mistaken or does this seem like a massive nerf to healing and requires 1800 gear to even achieve remotely close to our current healing in 3's? I hope I'm wrong but it would seem after reading it that if you had 0 pvp gear on and stepped into 2v2 you would heal for 25% of base value after the additional 50% reduction? Can we even get a breakdown on any sort of numbers? Like power and defence in 1200/1500/1800? I know your changing the sets to be easier to get piece by piece but I hope I am not understanding this.

#12 Khale_Kitha

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 05:27 AM

One thing to definitely keep in mind is making sure that 1000 PvP defense doesn't completely negate 1000 PvP Power when referring to healing.  This is the type of bug that you guys are becoming a bit infamous for, so please keep an eye out for it, early.  =D


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#13 theGame

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 05:38 AM

so now the pvp stats work??? or not yet????? i can use my full pvp gear instead of 40%?



#14 Tidder

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 06:12 AM

If I'm understanding it right, pvp offence and defence are 1 to 1, but healing in that aspect will be nerfed so that the more rating you have the better you can heal but still at a net loss even after achieving 1800... unless I really am seeing it wrong. It feels like a direct attack on viability of healing in 2v2

#15 Ayestes

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 06:55 AM

Nice but how does this system stop 1,8k+ people from carrying 1k people? I dont see any improvements except that PvE and PvP (equip) is more seperated (which is btw. a good thing ofc.)!

 

But the biggest problem is that people who just reached lvl 50 and want to PvP cant get 1,8k+ without a carry. This obv. is not good. Is there a (real) solution in progress? And if so - how does it look like?

 

Thanks&Greetings.

 

This isn't something to solve that issue. This is something to solve the issues of PvE Gear often in many cases being superior then PvP Gear.  

 

Am I mistaken or does this seem like a massive nerf to healing and requires 1800 gear to even achieve remotely close to our current healing in 3's? I hope I'm wrong but it would seem after reading it that if you had 0 pvp gear on and stepped into 2v2 you would heal for 25% of base value after the additional 50% reduction? Can we even get a breakdown on any sort of numbers? Like power and defence in 1200/1500/1800? I know your changing the sets to be easier to get piece by piece but I hope I am not understanding this.

 

Healing does seem like it may take a hit.  Keep in mind though that PvP Gear has less stats (i.e. Assault Power) so damage is going to be coming down a lot as long each piece has enough contribution to it.  I'm honestly interested to see where it will all end up though.  Healing could be left at an advantage for all I know so there are too many variables to consider.

 

 

One thing to definitely keep in mind is making sure that 1000 PvP defense doesn't completely negate 1000 PvP Power when referring to healing.  This is the type of bug that you guys are becoming a bit infamous for, so please keep an eye out for it, early.  =D

 

This is the troublesome one I'll admit.  Gotta keep in mind though that they will be lacking Support Power relative to PvE gear, so this stat is supposed to make up for that and make their PvP gear superior to PvE gear. Of couse the way it's looking any PvE gear could make you pretty vulnerable.  


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#16 Meerkat

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:10 AM

My apologies, Healing doesn't have a direct opposition stat. It always gets better, but it scales differently than PvP Damage.


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#17 Khale_Kitha

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:19 AM

My apologies, Healing doesn't have a direct opposition stat. It always gets better, but it scales differently than PvP Damage.

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#18 Ayestes

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:21 AM

My apologies, Healing doesn't have a direct opposition stat. It always gets better, but it scales differently than PvP Damage.

 

With equal PvP Power and PvP Defense does PvP Damage always match up to an efficacy of 85%?  I know they don't directly interact anymore like they used to, but say if I had 4300 PvP Power and my opponent had 4300 PvP Defense would I technically have a PvP Damage efficacy of 85%?  If not, which one scales quicker?


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#19 Khale_Kitha

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:44 AM

According to the OP:

If your PvP Power – Foe PvP Defense = 0, then you will deal 85% damage after all other mitigation calculations.

 

This refers to instanced PvP combat.


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#20 Meerkat

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:48 AM

According to the OP:

If your PvP Power – Foe PvP Defense = 0, then you will deal 85% damage after all other mitigation calculations.

 

This refers to instanced PvP combat.

 

Yeah that above and it would be unmodified damage if you were in Open World combat.


Steven Engle - Lead Combat Designer - Carbine Studios