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Engineer DPS Theory Crafting Elder Game

engineer dps theory crafting damage dealing raid elder games

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#1 Spythe

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:34 AM

Updated info, gonna leave all the old information at the bottom of the white bar since it can still be useful but all the new/updated information will be above it.

 

I will do some more testing later today but for pure AoE damage this is the spec to go. ST may slightly vary if you want to stay with Electrocute since you can drop points from EA and put them somewhere else. 

 

http://ws-base.com/b...527.528.529.427

 

Alright boys this is the updated one where you avoid strikethrough at all cost since you actually WANT to get deflected. Been testing on a single target dummy but the more mobs = more deflects = more AP and Crit. I think a ST Bolt Caster spec will also benefit from the GET DEFLECTED Amp layout. Now this gives you a few options to play with, you can drop the Extra Hurtin Amp and grab Reckless Dash OR you can drop the Cruisin for a Brusiin for Unstable Volatility(this is more ideal for ST if you want to still rock with Electrocute)

 

Should be noted this build only well works in raids.

 

http://ws-base.com/b...433.527.528.529

 

How most electrocute specs would play out in a boss fight, X-89

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=-hrwdTxrn6A

 

QB isn't much of an option since the Tiering on the ability sucks and the Tier bonuses are awful since Armor pen is worthless and you would rarely be above 80 volatility unless you run a PB spec but then you won't have enough ability points to even get T8 QB. This could change if Carbine adjust how it tiers then it will become an options.

 

A.Bot is questionable on a few bosses so trusting him with the extra points may not work well. He does a ton of damage if you keep barrage on CD and his auto attack is really nice. If you want to put points on him you have to make sure you micro manage him a bit better.

 

Thanks to Dartos for pointing this out but you can keep bind bot commands that make micro managing a lot easier. Bot command thread

 

https://forums.wilds...ybindscommands/

 

For a single target Electrocute spec you have a few options.

 

For ST you want Reckless Dash since EA isn't as important but once again the AoE Electrocute spec works just fine for ST fights but just trying to figure out the "best" one.

 

This spec you get a CC break with Shattering Impairment since you won't need EA since you have the reckless dash Amp.

 

http://ws-base.com/b...527.528.529.616

 

Amp system is the same, this options give you more crit when you pop Shattering Impairment but Engineer have soooo much crit I'm not sure if its worth the Tier points. With this spec you want to stagger VI and Shatter Impairment since both popped at the same time is over kill. You can also use them to cancel the Electrocute channel for Volatility Rising to do more work and the Electrocute tick times

 

http://ws-base.com/b...pvCK71QvMvCKgq/

 

T8 PB spec, this spec works fine but it plays a bit more clunky than the basic Electrocute spec due to how some buffs work in this game. You can't refresh the actually buff until it fades out so you only want to cast PB for volatility or when the buff is around 1 second. Of course an add on can help make this spec feel less clunky but I couldn't get more DPS out of this spec over the AoE Electrocute spec maybe it was a rotation thing going on here.

 

http://ws-base.com/b...#ppvCrQvMvvKvq/

 

I think this is the best ST spec once all the bugs are ironed out. I always seem to net more DPS on ST fights when I use a BC build over Electrocute even with the bug. All my test are from doing the same boss fight a week later using this spec over Electrocute since you can't test BC on target dummies atm since all bolts won't hit.

 

http://ws-base.com/b...616.425.426.427

 

How the spec players out in a boss fight, X-89

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=M_QW-RZsz9A

 

Kuralak, split video but you get the point

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Gso3mHY-4A4

 

3 extra points to put where every you want but I suggest Dash regen or maximum shield amps. For this spec since Bioshell cooldown bugs out you want to keep EA as an "oh shit I don't have any dash tokens and I'm not in the sweet zone"

 

 

Random stuff - I personally hate TA and don't think its worth the amp points and just functions terrible for actually raid content. Getting off a 3 second channel doesn't seem bad but it really highlights the Engineer biggest problem. They have reduced mobility when casting, this is why I personally enjoy the BC spec since if done right you won't cast during a fight.

 

Haven't been able to really test a Tier'd Mortar Strike spec since I can't seem to get the ability to hit anything for the life of me. Close range, dead zone, mid range, etc. It not a 100% reliable after a few test no matter what I did so I gave up on it.

 

 

 

 

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Well lets start off with just showing all the runes sets for the Engineer class focusing on DPS.

 

Class ones

 

5CsKCx2.pngQeNxcBt.png

 

DPS ones

 

5JbPSzF.png[tCXuwlc.pngoUIZOLZ.png

6gyM7j4.pngpCNCPfR.png

 

So from here what Rune set is the best? Lets start off with some basic stuff first, this pretty much applies to all damage classes.

 

Technophile = Air, Logic, Fire 

 

Tech Fire Starter = Earth, Fire, Logic

 

Assassinate = Fire, Life, Logic

 

Fusion Blast = Fusion, Fire, Air

 

Weapon Specialist - Fire, Logic, Earth

 

As you can see Fire/Fusion > Air > Water/Life > Logic/Earth

 

Assault Power > Main Stat(Finesse for Engineer) > This really should focus on getting a certain set number for the bonuses so your choices can vary: Strikethrought(after this point its a toss up but I would suggest)/Secondary Stat/Crit/Crit Sev/Health/Grit.

 

Now what elemental rune slot do you want? FUSION/FIRE/OMNI(any elemental type can go in here) are by far the 3 best since you can drop a lot of AP on both. The odds of getting a roll with multi Fusion and Fire are pretty much 0 to none, so its safe to just assume whenever you see them this is the safest bet.

 

Fusion Rune Slot = Fusion Blast of Assault Power > Rune of Assault Power > Rune of Finesse. Odds of getting more than 3 on a single item are 0.000000000000000000000000001

 

Fire Rune Slot = Tech Fire Starter/Weapon Specialist/Assassin of Assault Power. Odds of getting more than 3 on a single item are 0.000000000000000000000000002

 

Omni Rune Slot = Any AP rune that isn't be used in the item

 

Air Rune Slot = Technophile  of Finesse > Finesse > Fusion Blast Rune of Strikethrough(if you want that set)

 

Earth Rune Slot(worse slot for you) = Tech Fire Start of Crit Sev or Weapon Specialist Crit Sev... get both if you have more than 1 earth slot on an item

 

Life Rune Slot = Rune of Finesse or Assassin Crit Sev.... get both if you have more than 1 life slot on an item

 

Logic Rune Slot = Technophile, Weapon Specialist(Strikethrought) or Tech Fire Starter Crit Sev(depends on which one you're aiming for) or Finesse.... get multi if you get more than 1 logic slot on an item 

 

Water Rune Slot = Finesse > Tough Chassis of Finesse if you get multiply

 

Alright now with all that out in the open which is the best set to focus on?  Honestly get whatever you can. With how random Rune sets are it kinda hard to plan out the perfect set number/set to go for. For early live I would go for the sets that only require 12(give first bonus at 4) since those are a bit more realistic. You can pretty much rule out any set that requires 20( give first bonus at 8) because people won't be seeing those til the 40man gear drops AND even then you still have to get lucky on the Rune Number and Rune Elemental type. 

 

I think weapon specialist is a safe bet because it works well with Bolt Caster, it buffs Energy Auger(the initial hit), and Bioshell. Then of course all the tech ones are good because they buff Electrocute which really shines for AoE damage and can compete with BC for single target damage. If you want tech damage go with Technophile/Assassinate til you can work your way up to Tech Fire Starter but T. Fire Starter should be only looked at if you have enough Rune slots to actually support it. Once you hit that then Fusion Blast becomes an option.

 

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We been having a DPS discussion in a different thread but I think this one would be better suited for theory crafting. I have some boss kills of the last weekend(4/18 to 4/21) in my signature if you want to check out how each spec actually plays. My rotation isn't perfect on the boss fights but you can get the general idea.

 

Check out Enigma Wildstarlogs to see how some of the classes DPS rank up. Be warned this probably isn't the best display of actually damage per class since some people have a lot more gear than others and a good amount of abilities/amps/tiers are still bugged with the latest patch.

 

Monday Raid

 

http://www.wildstarl...fMcVpaC23wPgNZ8

 

I will continue to update this thread and add specs/videos but don't have a lot of time atm.

 

To get the discussion rolling just gonna take some quotes from the other thread.

 

 

I think this is a solid build for trash and any boss that you can do cleave damage

 

http://ws-base.com/b...529.616.425.426

 

And this Bolt Caster build will be nice for single target damage. We need to test if Unstable Volatility can be applied multiply times with Bolt Caster since it hits 5 times at once. If so that would be a massive DPS gain.

 

Ideal Bolt Caster spec once everything is fixed, you would basically do 2 to 3 bolt caster for every 1 bio shell.

 

Here is the current Bolt Caster T4 bug that makes this spec hard to really test out.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=rn5xpoyndDY

 

An idea on how the spec would play out, 2nd floor mini boss

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=nATpjsL-MHM

 

 

http://ws-base.com/b...425.538.539.540

 

The amp selection will need some work, like every T2 amp in Assualt is amazing... Of course this is assuming armor piecing and shrapnel rounds

 

(check the logs here for my damage break down, Explosive shouldn't get more hits than Shrapnel) Explosive has double the amount of hits. When Shrapnel should have 3 hits every 7 secs most of the fight.

 

http://www.wildstarl...-done&source=26

 

actually gets fixed. You wouldn't need the dash amp, but losing the 10% crit when you pop your innate may be a bit much but in a raid you will have a ton of crit already with Harmful Hits and T4 A.Bot that alone is +15.5 crit which puts my Engineer at 32.5% crit self buffed. Then if you're constantly in range of a medic that is another 6% I believe.

 

If Unstable can't stack mutli times from Bolt Caster then this may be the clear winner for the amp section

 

http://ws-base.com/b...425.538.539.540

 

BUT then Forceful Impact jumps into the equation since you really won't need the dash Amp. You could grab Lifesteal Amp to Forceful Impact which may net more DPS since getting 1 shot deflected on Bolt Caster or even a Bio Shell won't alter damage at all. 

 

Rough stats off the top of my head.

 

AP is about 1589

 

I have the 4 piece assassinate and technophobe

 

I believe I have about 17.45 crit unbuffed which is about 24% with A.Bot

 

Don't remember the crit serve but its probably around 175%

 

My current Engineer stats, I just got new pants so take away about 15ish Finesse on the current logs.

 

SHb2szq.png

 

 

Raid DPS stats

 

Warriors(Heavy Armor)

 

Kuramaa - 1385 stat - 1993 AP

Enadira - 1344 stat - 1715 AP

Atheaxena - 1200 stat - 1515 AP

 

Engineers(Heavy Armor)

 

Spylock  -   1204 stat  - 1631 AP

Walrusky - 1063 stat - 1359 AP

 

Medics(Medium Armor)

 

BonquiquiMD - 1267 stat - 2634 AP

 

Stalkers(Medium Armor), 30% Brut above 70% HP

 

Saucelol - 1823 stat - 2776 AP

Trene - 1744 stat - 2461 AP

Rethan - 1787 stat - 2581 AP

 

Espers(Light Amor), 25% Moxie at 100% HP

 

Carthh ---------1736 stat - 3247 AP

Froppen--------1705 stat - 2860 AP

Vorps ----------1431 stat - 2650 AP

Kas -------------1331 stat - 2656 AP

 

Spellslingers(Light Armor)

 

Cruegarr - 1270 stat - 2384 AP

 

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Gameplay in non raid Elder Game content

 

Veteran KV 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Vg_G-B-niFA

 

 

Veteran STL

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=hhVmKwtWKcI

 

Build used, I believe it was this for those runs.

 

http://ws-base.com/b...582.583.615.617


Spythe | Dominion(Entity - PvE) | Spellslinger

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https://www.youtube.com/user/spythe


#2 Ayestes

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:44 AM

Keep the info coming. All I have basically napkin math style spreadsheet. The info you guys have given has been amazing.  


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#3 Tusk

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:31 AM

I'm going to continue from our previous thread.

 

Having Volitility Rising, Volitility Injection and your innate, you should never require both EA and Bio. After doing some personal testing at level 50, I've found that incorporating Bio T7 is enough to maintain my Electrocute spam consistently. I also believe you're not accounting for downtime when evading certain mechanics where VR comes into play. 

 

Now, speaking of the highest theoretical DPS throughput, we have to look at our class holistically. Unstable Volitility and Explosive Ammo rely on direct hits, and Electrocute provides the Engineer with the most amount of direct hits. That's 2 UV procs in one cast. In addition, Engineers I feel are more effective when it comes to technology damage buff stacking, and Electrocute provides us with a 15% boost at T4. Add in Bio's T7, and you get the gist. 

 

This doesn't mean BC can't be competitive, but I feel with our current resource system, it's going to be tough.



#4 Chac

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:37 AM

Some pretty interesting info in those reports. I'm assuming your gear is better than the other DPS engy ? You're eeking out some more dps in other places too compared to him, but I can't imagine you're actually gaining anything by having a bigger proportion of your damage coming from Electrocute.

 

Other than that I can't say I quite agree with your assessment of the AMPs. Shrapnel Rounds, Explosive Ammo and Unstable Volatility each represent around 2-4% of your DPS at best, compared to 1 point AMPs that give 2% crit and 2,5% AP that's pretty underwhelming. Also, why would you take shield capacity when you have 2 available strikethrough AMPs and have a pretty consistent miss-rate around 3% ?



#5 Ayestes

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:45 AM

Problem with Shrapnel Rounds and Unstable Volatilty are they are bugged to not consistently proc off of direct damage.   Therefore you don't actually get full uptime on Shrapnel Rounds and Unstable Volatility doesn't proc as frequently as it should.  Unstable Volatility is also wrong on the tooltip and procs every 4 direct damage hits instead of 5, as an example it stacks up to 3 times then the next one that registers correctly expunges it and deals damage.  That's why Explosive Ammo is the one that's ahead most of the time as it's actually working.

 

Problem with all three of those are yeah they are worse by a good margin per AMP Point spent.  Aodz said that's not how it should be, but that's currently our dilemna as an Engineer.  I mean these AMPs are terrible effective DPS boosts in general, although Explosive Ammo is passable if it's proc'ing on cooldown in an AoE situation.  

 

What the actual problem is there is very little other effective per AMP point DPS increases once you fill out all the good Tier 1 AMPs.  I'd personally try to run this AMP layout to get as much DPS out of it as I could.  Volatile Armor is the only thing I'd drop since it's less then 2% crit over the entire duration between ExoSuit cooldowns, but then again burst control can always be manipulated to your advantage so it's going to work out to be more then that.   The T1 Armor Pierce AMPs and Volatile Armor though would probably be the first places to go for DPS boosts given extra AMP points.  


Exile - Pago (PvP) - Fail Gaming | Ayestem - PvP DPS Melee Mage Esper

Ayestes - Spellslinger | Ayestet - Medic  |  Ayestee -  Engineer


#6 Spythe

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:48 AM

Now, speaking of the highest theoretical DPS throughput, we have to look at our class holistically. Unstable Volitility and Explosive Ammo rely on direct hits, and Electrocute provides the Engineer with the most amount of direct hits. That's 2 UV procs in one cast. In addition, Engineers I feel are more effective when it comes to technology damage buff stacking, and Electrocute provides us with a 15% boost at T4. Add in Bio's T7, and you get the gist. 

 

This doesn't mean BC can't be competitive, but I feel with our current resource system, it's going to be tough.

 

That is the thing is UV works like I think it should, wouldn't Bolt Caster be consider 5 direct hits instantly instead of the channel from Electrocute. You can get off 2 to 3 Bolt Casters compared to 1 Electrocute channel.

 

 

Some pretty interesting info in those reports. I'm assuming your gear is better than the other DPS engy ? You're eeking out some more dps in other places too compared to him, but I can't imagine you're actually gaining anything by having a bigger proportion of your damage coming from Electrocute.

 

Other than that I can't say I quite agree with your assessment of the AMPs. Shrapnel Rounds, Explosive Ammo and Unstable Volatility each represent around 2-4% of your DPS at best, compared to 1 point AMPs that give 2% crit and 2,5% AP that's pretty underwhelming. Also, why would you take shield capacity when you have 2 available strikethrough AMPs and have a pretty consistent miss-rate around 3% ?

 

Yeah my gear is better than his, by a good amount. You take Expo ammo and possible UV(if BC counts as 5 direct hits) because there isn't anything else worth grabbing. T3 of every other Amp tree doesn't provide any actually damage increases. Strikethrough AMP is interesting since this is theory crafting I'm assuming you would have better gear which you would need less Strikethrough. That AMP choice really comes down to your current gear, if you have bad gear take all 3, if you have good gear you may not need any at all. Then there is Forceful Impact which may require you to avoid Strikethrough all together so that procs more. But then that really leads to the question if Cruisin for a Bruisin would be worth grabbing. 


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https://www.youtube.com/user/spythe


#7 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:50 AM

I'm going to continue from our previous thread.

 

Having Volitility Rising, Volitility Injection and your innate, you should never require both EA and Bio. After doing some personal testing at level 50, I've found that incorporating Bio T7 is enough to maintain my Electrocute spam consistently. I also believe you're not accounting for downtime when evading certain mechanics where VR comes into play. 

 

I noticed you did not even mention Reckless Dash, how was this not a large part of your volatility gain in said testing?

 

 

Now, speaking of the highest theoretical DPS throughput, we have to look at our class holistically. Unstable Volitility and Explosive Ammo rely on direct hits, and Electrocute provides the Engineer with the most amount of direct hits. That's 2 UV procs in one cast. In addition, Engineers I feel are more effective when it comes to technology damage buff stacking, and Electrocute provides us with a 15% boost at T4. Add in Bio's T7, and you get the gist.

 

None of what you said is false about all those mechanics being damage increases , but that isn't to the point.  While I haven't tested it, I'm starting to think that Spythe's build may be the way to go when there are not unpredictable telegraphs.  But that does not diminish the usability of both Bioshell and Energy Auger for fights that have unpredictable telegraphs.



#8 Tusk

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:52 AM

That is the thing is UV works like I think it should, wouldn't Bolt Caster be consider 5 direct hits instantly instead of the channel from Electrocute. You can get off 2 to 3 Bolt Casters compared to 1 Electrocute channel.

 

That's definitely something I'd like to test out. :)

 

@Trypto: I've been able to maintain Volitility without RD. But it's something I'll test out more to see if it's any more effective. And which build of Spythe's are you referring to?



#9 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:56 AM

The one that is currently usable.

 

I don't see how maintaining Volatility without RD or Energy Auger is realistic in the majority of raid encounters.



#10 Tusk

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:02 AM

I've got Bio replacing EA.



#11 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:06 AM

I've got Bio replacing EA.

 

And?



#12 Chac

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:08 AM

Yeah my gear is better than his, by a good amount. You take Expo ammo and possible UV(if BC counts as 5 direct hits) because there isn't anything else worth grabbing. T3 of every other Amp tree doesn't provide any actually damage increases. Strikethrough AMP is interesting since this is theory crafting I'm assuming you would have better gear which you would need less Strikethrough. That AMP choice really comes down to your current gear, if you have bad gear take all 3, if you have good gear you may not need any at all. Then there is Forceful Impact which may require you to avoid Strikethrough all together so that procs more. But then that really leads to the question if Cruisin for a Bruisin would be worth grabbing. 

Oh, I'm fully aware why you'd take them, I'm just saying I don't find them quite that amazing =) If you wanna talk optimal theorycrafting you would still want the strikethrough amps, since it means you could redirect stats on your gear towards other more valuable attributes. The only reason not to pick them would be if you're just swimming in Brutality, which you don't really want in the first place anyways.

 

 

Having Volitility Rising, Volitility Injection and your innate, you should never require both EA and Bio. After doing some personal testing at level 50, I've found that incorporating Bio T7 is enough to maintain my Electrocute spam consistently.

I'm gonna go back to the thing I already said in the other thread. What makes you think this is the thing to focus on ?



#13 Spythe

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:11 AM

@typto

 

Its doable because of the GCD from Bolt Caster allows rising to keep your volatility up and BC cost is actually really cheap at 25. At 100 you hit 2 that brings you 2 50 then you wait the .5 to 1sec and hit Bio Shell. This is basically repeated the entire duration of a fight. Worse thing that can happen is you start at  70 volatility while not doing damage.

 

With all that said its probably a safe bet keeping the Dash amp. The opening will be the most annoying part so keeping the dashing amp is probably a better choice. With the amp you just double dash to Bio Shell at the start of a fight.

 

Without it you could take EA which can be used by one of your 2 free slots. EA to Bio Shell

 

Without EA it would be hard cast Bio Shell, Innate, Volatile Injection to get it rolling.

 

@Chac

 

Strikethrough is a weird stat and there are a lot of abilities that drop a mobs deflect rate so it may just depend on the group set up and their LAS set up over your own gear. It very realistic at some point to not even grab the amp. And there is still the amps that buff you when an attack gets deflected, which are terrible amps imo but they have to be considered as well.


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https://www.youtube.com/user/spythe


#14 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:15 AM

Haha okay I obviously should be more clear about which builds I am referencing, my bad.  I was speaking of the currently usable Electrocute build (which you have listed as a cleave build), not the unusable Bolt Caster one.



#15 Spythe

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

Well yeah any Electrocute spec is hard to maintain without the dash amp and without EA or TA. It may be possible to do if you stop attack for a second after I think every other Electrocute cast, there is a window in there somewhere. But I'm not sure what you would actually gain from it besides the fact you can do it.


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#16 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

After taking a look at the Bolt Caster build, I was originally thinking that T8 Bioshell not be an increase over T7 Bioshell because of the way that T7 increases tech damage by triple what T8 increases in damage from armor reduction.  I guess it will depend on what % of damage Bolt Caster and Bioshell will be doing.  There is also the fact that T8 Bioshell blocks Particle Ejector, but that will be fixed soon hopefully.



#17 Chac

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:22 AM

Has anyone ever timed how much time it takes to dash?



#18 Trypto

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

It is based off of a resource that has a max of 200.  100 = 1 dash, 200 = 2 dashes.  I'll have to reconfirm this whenever I get the chance but I believe the regen rate is 9 per .5 seconds, but 9 immediately regenerates the second you dash. 



#19 Chac

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:45 PM

It is based off of a resource that has a max of 200.  100 = 1 dash, 200 = 2 dashes.  I'll have to reconfirm this whenever I get the chance but I believe the regen rate is 9 per .5 seconds, but 9 immediately regenerates the second you dash. 

Oh, I was talking about the dash animation. Like what's the duration of a dash.



#20 Zap

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:18 PM

Your question had me curious so I ran some videos through an editing program that displays milliseconds.  The dashes all were very close to .5 seconds.





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