Jump to content


Photo

Healing Torrent - PvP Spellslinger Healer


  • Please log in to reply
99 replies to this topic

#1 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:36 PM

The healing torrent nerf greatly hurt Spellslinger healers in PvP. Runic Healing is simply a horrible ability for PvP and Dual Fire doesn't heal the Spellslinger. The problem is that without Healing Torrent all the spellslinger heals either have limitations on targets OR cooldowns that make using them in a regular rotation pointless/impractical. Not to mention the added problem of limited Tier points. Due to pvp focus problems Spellslingers pretty much have to pickup Gather Focus and thanks to Diminish they are pigeon holed into putting it at Tier 8. So they don't have the Tier points available to put into the Support Line.

 

A couple Proposed Solutions-

 

1) Allow Dual Fire to heal the Caster (This way you can rotate between this and Healing Torrent)

2) Allow Runic Healing to heal the Caster AND another Target (This way you can actually effective use this as a Filler. Soothe and Emission put this skill to shame)

3) Revert the nerf to Healing Torrent and remove the Cooldown (Back to square one)

4) Remove/Reduce the cooldowns of Vitality Burst and/or Sustain to 3 seconds or less. (Once again this allows Spellslingers to use a diverse healing lineup without having to use impractical abilities for PvP)

5) On top of the other options Carbine should consider removing diminish from Gather Focus so PvP healers can put Tier points into a more broad healing arsenal (You can't expect us to use 3-4 different healing skills and then not provide us the tools to make those abilities useful)

 

 

Once again, I believe the purpose of this nerf was to diversify Spellslinger heal rotations but was done without much thought to how it would affect PvP Spellslinger Healers. In PvE you can get away without having so much in the utility tree but in PvP this is horribly damaging. 

 

Edit- (Since I feel this is being overlooked, or misunderstood. Below are some examples explaining the issues of this)

 

Example 1- Healing another Player. (Using Healing Torrent and Dual Fire)

 

Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Dual Fire(1.6sec)-->0.1 second deadspace-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Dual Fire(1.6sec)

 

As you can see, we are able to rotate between Healing Torrent and T4 Dual Fire to maintain 100% healing uptime on an ally. (That very small deadspace can be overcome by picking up the 15% CD reduction in the Utility Tree) So.. healing other players is NOT an issue.

 

 

Example 2- Healing yourself. (Using Healing Torrent, Sustain and Dual Fire)

 

Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Sustain(1.8sec)-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->1.7 second deadspace-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Sustain(1.8sec)

 

Even though I listed Dual Fire, you can't use this to heal yourself. Why did I list it then? Well, because you'll need it to effectively heal your partners. As you can see this healing lineup creates a 1.7 second period that will burn you. So this means.. every 6.1 seconds (2 Healing Torrent cycles) you will have to endure a 1.7 second deadspace. Let's put more Math into this. (1.7secs divided by 6.1secs = 28% of the time) So we have almost 1/3 deadspace.

 

 

Example 3- Healing yourself (Now we are expanding and using Healing Torrent, Sustain, Dual Fire AND Vitality Burst)

 

Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Sustain(1.8sec)-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Vitality Burst(2.6sec)-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->Sustain(1.8sec)-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)-->1.0 second deadspace-->Healing Torrent(1.3sec)

 

Once again, we STILL run into a scenario with another deadspace! Although this is far more tolerable than Example 2. So even using this scenario we have (1.0sec divided by 12.4sec = 8%) So even using a scenario with 4 heals you still have to endure nearly a 10% downtime.

 

 

As you can see, this is an issue. Please realize this. I know I am a "hardcore PvPer" but that doesn't mean we should go live with a system that eventually will lead us to required downtime. The only effective way to avoid downtime at the moment is Runic Healing but this ability is horrible for PvP. Carbine, please consider some of the recommendations I have made in order to allow PvP Spellslingers a smoother healing rotation.


  • Audrey, Derail, Rex_Marksley and 5 others like this

Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#2 Rex_Marksley

Rex_Marksley
  • Members

Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:05 PM

I agree with all these changes.
Except didn't healing torrent need a slight nerf?
  • Irullan likes this

#3 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:16 PM

I agree with all these changes.
Except didn't healing torrent need a slight nerf?

 

Then nerf the output. Not the functionality.


Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#4 Gr1mnar

Gr1mnar
  • Guests

Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

I think the HT change was just a way of bringing it down but without homogenization making it a Soothe clone.  So I'd be interested to see a comparison of Soothe spam HPS vs HT used on CD.  Would they heal at similar rates or would Soothe blow it away?  



#5 Menisong

Menisong
  • Members

Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:06 PM

I think the HT change was just a way of bringing it down but without homogenization making it a Soothe clone.  So I'd be interested to see a comparison of Soothe spam HPS vs HT used on CD.  Would they heal at similar rates or would Soothe blow it away?  

I believe unsurged Healing Torrent would out heal Soothe at tier 0 by almost 1770 sustained hps.


  • Irullan likes this

#6 Gr1mnar

Gr1mnar
  • Guests

Posted 19 April 2014 - 08:04 PM

I believe unsurged Healing Torrent would out heal Soothe at tier 0 by almost 1770 sustained hps.

well, there you go.  I play both Esper and Spellslinger and not sure how this is a bad thing.  I'd actually prefer HT > Soothe by a long ways if this were true.  With HT I heal once, then can use that 3 seconds to do other things whether other heals or CC, while the Esper is madly spamming 1 button and still falling behind in HPS?  Interesting.



#7 Audrey

Audrey
  • Guests

Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

Yea, I fooled around last night for awhile and again this morning, and I'm having a real difficult time making a good PvP rotation with everything (everything: Torrent, Sustain, Dual Fire, Vitality Burst, and Astral) being on cooldown. I still feel like no other heals are worth slotting in PvP (Runic, Runes of P, Salve, Voidspring, Reg pulse), and at most you probably want 3-4 of your LAS slots to be used on heals. I consider Purify, Void Slip, Phase Shift, and Gather Focus as must slot currently, leaving you 4 slots for heals and additional utility. 

 

For comparisons sake:

 

On Esper I currently use two - three support heals (Soothe, Mental Boon, and sometimes Reverie), and Projected Spirit as a heal / utility escape ability. 

 

Medic is basically three with Emission, Crisis Wave, and Shield Surge. 

 

What both of those have in common, is they have a no-cooldown, spamable, filler heal that effects multiple players including the caster. Slinger does not have that option. I would love to see Runic adjusted to something like mentioned above, or made true free-form AOE. In lieu of that, Vitality, Sustain, or Torrents cooldown being reduced or removed would be ideal. 


Audry | 50 SpellSlinger | Pago

Audrey | 50 Esper | Pago

Audrie | 50 Medic | Pago


#8 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 20 April 2014 - 12:55 PM

I played around on Honor's spellslinger a bit yesterday and the only effective rotation I found was Healing Torrent --> Dual Fire (Tier 4). When I personally got focused I would use Healing Torrent --> Sustain. Of course, throwing in Purify, and such, as needed. The problem is that between Sustain/HT you have an eventual "dead space" because of Sustain's 5 second cooldown.

 

 

I will admit that I find the new Void Slip pretty OP. I already spec into the 15% cooldown reduction so that puts it at like 38 seconds I think. Either way it is very consistent.


Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#9 Yink

Yink
  • Members

Posted 20 April 2014 - 08:28 PM

With Healing Torrent being a huge Support defining Amp Tier 3 unlockable, I think it should be a fairly strong skill to justify the point investment. But the spamming of it and only it, is what needs to be toned down. That's not necessarily due to the skill itself being an issue but a lack of other skills with strong enough appeal for use in PVP (which Glory and Audrey already covered for the most part).

 

With the addition of the cooldown, there's nothing we can usefully fill the gap with. Dual Fire kinda can, but it has to be tiered (regardless that it doesn't heal us). Right now, Voidspring has been my goto heal due to the heal over time nature, but its terrible in any situation where you or your target has to be on the move (aside from your target not standing in it).

 

Healing Torrent is the only reliable burst heal skill we have. If anything let us have the choice to spam it and if we do, at a cost of a cooldown until we can cast it again. Perhaps each subsequent cast of Healing Torrent increases the cooldown up to some maximum of casts/cooldown, that way we can temporarily spam Healing Torrent if needed or until other heals are available at the penalty of an increased cooldown on torrent. Plus it would also be more fitting of the name healing torrent.

 

I've always enjoyed healing, especially in PVP, as its more about using the right skill at the right time. Let us make the choices ourselves and not be pidgeon-holed into something like a "healing rotation."

 

To Glory (& Honor): We need to bg some more together. ;P Some fun games last beta weekend.



#10 Renergy

Renergy
  • Members

Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:43 PM

I agree with a number of points you have made. The most appreciated change, in my opinion, is removing the T8 Gather Focus requirement and a distant runner-up would be buffing Runic Healing. I only say "distant runner-up" as I dislike targeted spells in this game, if it was changed to a free form spell and healed the caster I wouldn't mind having it on my bar. A potential, albeit weak, solution to removing the T8 requirement for Gather Focus is to bring Runes of Protection as the absorb is not affected by Diminish but, of course, this takes up another LAS slot. As you mentioned, this problem is exacerbated with having to bring a number of heals to counter the downtime or having to bring another heal because Dual Fire doesn't heal the caster, both situations leads to less utility skills and consequently less survivability. I also feel that focus management is not too bad when you don't have to spam HT, having a spammable filler like T4 Dual Fire allows you to cast HT as the debuff falls off. Once again, too bad it doesn't heal the caster.

 

One issue I see with making Dual Fire heal the caster is that it would outshine Vitality Burst. Needless to say, DF doing damage, having a shorter CD, less of a focus cost per cast and a comparable heal would make bringing VB questionable unless its tiered up to maybe T8. At this stage I feel like Spellslingers don't have those tier points available.

 



#11 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:45 PM

If that was the case something should be done to vitality burst. The only real reason why people would/should use Dual Fire is because of the short cooldown and synergy with Healing Torrent. If Vitality Burst had a 1.5 second cooldown I'd use it instead.


Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#12 Renergy

Renergy
  • Members

Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

Most definitely. I'm surprised this thread has not received more attention as the situation at hand is worrying to anyone who wants to play Slinger heals in PvP.

 

Not to mention, another well known but persisting problem is that pre-HT healing is extremely weak. It almost seems a change to Runic Healing is due as it may address both problems, but it may be too late in the development cycle for them to do this before launch. I should note that I'm not sure if 'no new spell tech' entails that Runic Healing cannot be changed to, say, a line cast since that tech already exists in the game. Maintaining the whole on-the-move penalty is welcomed by me but I really dislike having to constantly click around.



#13 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:52 PM

Most definitely. I'm surprised this thread has not received more attention as the situation at hand is worrying to anyone who wants to play Slinger heals in PvP.

 

I agree but I think Dps Spellslinger is still vastly more popular. Healing Spellslingers has been the most difficult(read: highest skillcap) of the three healers for as long as I've been through Beta AND it's often had issues that keep people from sticking with it too long. Something about the Space Cowboy keeps people interested in the Dps regardless of nerf cycles.

 

Either way I fully agree. In the past you use to have to be level 26 before Healing Torrent and healing spellslingers were garbage until then. Recently they moved HT to level 18 which was a nice improvement. That improvement has, imho, been fully negated since you now require Dual Fire Tier 4 and/or Sustain which require a higher level again. (Maybe this further hurts the issue since a large potion of the player base can't level pass 20 so they don't realize the potential a Spellslinger even has)

 

 

Regardless, all that aside, I am not necessarily asking for healing buffs. I am implying that, for PvP, the spellslingers rotation is broken. I personally believe that Dual Fire is more of a PvP ability anyway. I'm hoping Carbine simply allows that to heal the caster and a lot of the issues should be resolved. (It also seems like a very easy fix to me)


  • Audrey likes this

Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#14 Audrey

Audrey
  • Guests

Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:00 PM

I totally agree, but for some reason pvpers that don't play spellslinger are convinced its a non-issue and a "learn to play" situation. If nothing else I'm sure it will get attention post launch when players start trying to heal on their slinger only to find things just aren't quite right.
  • Renergy likes this

Audry | 50 SpellSlinger | Pago

Audrey | 50 Esper | Pago

Audrie | 50 Medic | Pago


#15 Renergy

Renergy
  • Members

Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

...Something about the Space Cowboy keeps people interested in the Dps regardless of nerf cycles...

Lol, too true. I saw more Spellslinger healers in the 15-29 bracket this time around! It reminded me of how they need to not let a weaker version of Healing Salve override my spellsurged T4 Healing Salve. I kindly asked the person to not replace my Healing Salve... he proceeded to not surge his non-T4 salves on cooldown. I suppose you can say I got trolled.
 

On a more serious note, hopefully the level cap being raised to 25 will encourage more people to heal on a Spellslinger and consequently provide feedback.



#16 ObviouslyLost

ObviouslyLost
  • Members
  • LocationGeorgia

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:30 AM

Lol, too true. I saw more Spellslinger healers in the 15-29 bracket this time around! It reminded me of how they need to not let a weaker version of Healing Salve override my spellsurged T4 Healing Salve. I kindly asked the person to not replace my Healing Salve... he proceeded to not surge his non-T4 salves on cooldown. I suppose you can say I got trolled.
 

On a more serious note, hopefully the level cap being raised to 25 will encourage more people to heal on a Spellslinger and consequently provide feedback.

 

I'm not hindered by the cap, but SS healing will be my main focus this weekend. I've been playing medic and while I do like it... it gets annoying chasing people down constantly... (no... come back... let me heeeeeal youuuuuu!)  :mellow: I tried out Esper this weekend and cant seem to get into it, so I'm going to give SS a second pass. I played it earlier in cbt and couldnt seem to get into it with the surge mechanic. It looks like that's improved quite a bit since I last tried it, so hopefully I can get into it this time. We'll see.  :ph34r:


  • Renergy likes this

#17 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:39 AM

I'm not hindered by the cap, but SS healing will be my main focus this weekend. I've been playing medic and while I do like it... it gets annoying chasing people down constantly... (no... come back... let me heeeeeal youuuuuu!)  :mellow: I tried out Esper this weekend and cant seem to get into it, so I'm going to give SS a second pass. I played it earlier in cbt and couldnt seem to get into it with the surge mechanic. It looks like that's improved quite a bit since I last tried it, so hopefully I can get into it this time. We'll see.  :ph34r:

 

Yep, just be sure to provide feedback on your healing rotation and whether it felt complete or lacking. I believe this is a pretty significant issue since it'll turn a lot of players off.


Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless


#18 BinaryIllusion

BinaryIllusion
  • Guests

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:15 AM

i tried healing over the weekend and felt almost forced to pick up dual fire as decent filler over most heals.

Anyone else feel that way as well?



#19 Renergy

Renergy
  • Members

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:51 AM

I was running T4 Dual Fire over the weekend for 15-29 BGs. I found myself having extremely good focus management, you could let the HT debuff fall off during periods of low/medium pressure and the damage was great. Something like 2.7k+ crits when surged. Otherwise, yeah, I felt like it was the superior choice for my "second slot" heal with VB coming in second place.


  • BinaryIllusion likes this

#20 MatchlessGlory

MatchlessGlory
  • Members

Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:17 AM

Yea, Dual Fire is probably mandatory at the moment due to the Tier 4 cooldown. The problem is that you can't use Dual Fire to heal yourself so if you are focused you have to pickup at least 2 other abilities to fill the gap between Healing Torrent. (I tried just using Sustain which worked but still gave me deadspace where I couldn't heal myself waiting for a cooldown) The biggest problem is that we don't have the necessary Tier points to spec into multiple abilities. So the problem will become worse, and worse, as you level up more.(After level 25)

 

Which is why I call it clunky. It seems like Carbine wants us to pickup 4-5 heals which we can't do in PvP because of the Tier System and necessary Utility skills. If Carbine were to make Dual Fire heal the caster then we could use Dual Fire and Healing Torrent in PvP while picking up a 3rd heal depending on the circumstances. (In my case probably an instant cast)

 

Idk, I personaly find this to be a MAJOR issue for PvP Spellslinger healing.


Glory is its own reward

 

Glory- Matchless