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PvP Stats are Broken


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#1 MatchlessGlory

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:34 PM

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After some testing it appears that PvP Offense doesn't increase your damage AND PvP Defense doesn't mitigate any damage. Both stats are completely, 100% useless atm. Best in slot is full PvE gear. I think the issue might come from Carbine trying to make PvP Offense negate PvP Defense. Imho, PvP Defense should just provide static damage reduction and PvP Offense should just provide static damage increase.

 

While we're at it- Can a dev clarify how the PvP stats are suppose to work exactly? Because if PvP Offense only negates PvP Defense then that might be the problem. It sounds like both stats are entirely, and completely dependent on each other. Which might be the cause of the error that is currently leaving these stats inoperable and irrelevant to other resistances.


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#2 Ayestes

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:59 AM

I guess I haven't discerned how they exactly work either, but I do know how I think they should work.

 

PvP Defense should simply be player mitigation. Every 100 Rating is just as effective as the last 100 Rating in terms of blocking player damage working just like the Armor value.  Heck it might work like that now, but I haven't had time to discern the formula.  PvP Offense on the other hand needs to change, because right now it's clear that it does not work this way. It needs to not additively cancel out PvP Defense and then grant no extra damage and instead needs to simply be a player damage multiplier that when it has equal rating to PvP Defense effectively cancels it out.  In other words, the formula should multiplicatively cancel out PvP Offense.   If you have more PvP Offense then they do defense 

 

So some examples?  Let's say my constant is 10000 at 50 (Instead of the 12700 value for Armor at 50) and I have 8000 PvP Offense.   My target has 8000 PvP Defense.   In this example the damage is unchanged.  Let's say they pop a PvP Defense trinket and gain an extra 2000 PvP Defense.  At this point they are only taking 90% of my original damage.  If instead I pop a trinket for an extra 2000 PvP Offense I would actually be amplifying my damage by an additional 11%.   How does this cancel out?  Well if we both popped an extra 2k in our respective stats then 90% * 111% = 100% meaning the damage is unchanged.  This kind of system makes every point of PvP stat as equally effective as the last and acheives the same result in this system where they effectively cancel each other out when equal.  Perhaps the effectiveness per point could be tuned afterwards, but currently the system seems to encourages just 4 or 5 points of PvP gear and then a mix of PvE gear which is not going to achieve the desired goal of using pure PvP gear.  


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#3 MatchlessGlory

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:16 PM

So I guess PvP Stats are only half broken. If your PvP Offense > their PvP Defense then you do 0 extra damage. If your PvP Defense > their PvP Offense then you do reduce their damage. This means that Dps players should still grab PvP Offense in order to not have damage reduced. However, Healers should just stack full PvE gear because they have no penalty for doing so.

 

So it's only half completely broken.


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#4 TeoH

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:19 PM

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PvP Defense doesn't mitigate any damage. Both stats are completely, 100% useless atm.

 
This is not true, but the way in which they do work is questionable at best.
 
PvP Offense doesn't increase your damage, but it does cancel out a percentage of the the target's PvP Defense
PvP Defense does increase your mitigation, but the amount it increases your mitigation by drops off sharply as the attacker's PvP Offense increases, which negates a percentage of all additional PvP Def you add.
 
This creates a lot of situations where additional points in each stat may do almost nothing depending on the stats of the target you're attacking, or being attacked by. The other problem with PvP gear is that the PvP stats on each piece are so high, that you run into very hard diminishing returns before you even have a full set equipped. The first piece of PvP gear can add over 20% Off/Def, the second piece adds less than half of that, by the time you're finishing off your set the diminishing returns are such that you're getting around 1% per piece. There are several logical problems with the system, like this:
  • If you're a full healer, your PvP gear is only potent against players with low amounts of PvP Offense. Having PvP gear against an ungeared attacker gives you huge damage mitigation, but against a player with a full PvP set the bulk of any additional PvP Def % you add will be negated, and the amount of PvP Def % you can get from gear plummets off to nothing on a sharp curve after a few pieces. Since using PvP gear involves a significant loss of attributes, and PvP Def does little against a fully geared attacker, healers can almost completely ignore PvP gear, perhaps only taking 1 or 2 pieces
  • If you're a damage dealer, you need PvP gear in order to mitigate the PvP Defense of other players wearing PvP gear, but as you approach a full set of PvP pieces the hard diminishing returns eventually make PvE raiding gear a better choice. Ideal gear setups will run around with only a partial PvP set, or possibly none at all because:.
  • As high end PvE raiding gear can come with 6x Omni sockets, socketing PvP stats into raiding gear can potentially replace PvP gear entirely, as you need very few stats before heavy DR kicks in making them weaker than regular attributes.
The current system makes very little sense to people looking at the gear or at their character sheet, it's unintuitive and it frankly doesn't achieve what it's supposed to achieve. I suspect there were objections to having PvP gear significantly increase damage dealt to PvE geared players, because of a fear of instagib ganks, leading to this current system where PvP Off only negates the Def stat, but the impact of PvP stats doesn't have to be 20%-per-piece huge, it only has to be greater than the equivalent PvE bonuses.
 
There are different ways of addressing this, but the double dipping DR has to change if this is going to make sense. If PvP pieces added 3-5% real damage/effective health per piece without any DR, and we did something about the 6x socket situation, then I suspect the numbers would work out quite well vs PvE gear. But we need to avoid this whacky gear meta where Player A's stats make Player B's stats worthless, and push Player B into using different stats.


EDIT: Amended on the assumption that Bardic's calculation is correct

Edited by TeoH, 25 April 2014 - 01:04 AM.

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#5 Ayestes

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:09 PM

Yeah it's pretty apparent to me excess PvP offense should be multiplying damage vs. a player. All the gadgets make that even more obvious.

Honestly it sounds insane but I think PvP Offense should amp heals while PvP Defense reduces heals. Equal values multiplicatively cancel each other, but excess either way increases or reduces it. More PvP Offense increases healing output this way. Could argue you feel PvP Defense feels like you are negating healing, but they would be healing the same amount of effective health in reality. Course this only works if excess PvP Offense is changed to multiply output.

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#6 unindel

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

I haven't thought about it a whole lot but it seems like a number of the problems with the current system could also be alleviated if our base PvP Defense wasn't equal to the base PvP Offense. Since Offense just cancels out Defense it's really weird having them both start at the same level.

 

Just throwing out somewhat arbitrary numbers here but if players started out with 30% PvP Defense and 0% PvP Offense then:

 

  • Healers will probably want to pick up PvP Gear because it's pretty easy to stay ahead of attackers in terms of PvP Defense vs their PvP Offense so all that PvP Defense itemization is actually doing something.
  • Damage Dealers will want PvP Gear because not taking it means right from the start you're dealing significantly less damage to other players than you could. Also since it's already optimal for everyone to get PvP Defense (as in previous bullet point, it's easy to make it mitigate), PvP Offense is also always a good thing to get.
  • People geared in PvP will do a max of 1/(Starting_PvP_Defense% - Starting_PvP_Offense%). With 30% starting defense, a geared PvP player (with at least 30% Offense) would do at most 42% more damage to a completely PvE geared player (of course that player should have more other stats) than they would against an equally geared PvP player. This could be one of the major numbers to use to tune the system (how much do we want PvP players to do relative to PvE).

That'd solve the "meta" problem of people deciding not to use the gear because the useful of the gear depends on other people also using it. There's still the wonky curve on the gear; there's so much rating on gear that those first pieces catapult you up way higher than later ones. Having harsh diminishing returns makes sense (haven't done the math on it but it's probably similar to the armor curve) but it should probably take at least half your gear to get to the point where just one or two pieces is taking you right now.


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#7 Ayestes

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:20 PM

The diminishing returns makes sense for PvP Defense assuming you are right that it's an armor curve.  (I too also just assume it's like that, but I haven't checked.)  That all goes out the window though once you just take PvP Defense - PvP Offense.  The way Armor works each 100 points is worth as much as the last.  If you are subtracting percentages though that doesn't hold up.  It'd work though if PvP Offense were instead an inverse of the stat and multiplied the damage instead. 


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#8 vanisha

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

They are idd broken for healers but as a dps they seem to work : while i played my alts fully pvp geared i noticed that having like 45% pvp off/def makes me a tank against most WE beta players in lv 20 gear.

I deal triple the dmg i take (made up number to illustrate).

It's even more obvious when you play a class that has some off healing capabilities (aka SS or Esper dps for example).


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#9 unindel

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 06:32 PM

The diminishing returns makes sense for PvP Defense assuming you are right that it's an armor curve.  (I too also just assume it's like that, but I haven't checked.)  That all goes out the window though once you just take PvP Defense - PvP Offense.  The way Armor works each 100 points is worth as much as the last.  If you are subtracting percentages though that doesn't hold up.  It'd work though if PvP Offense were instead an inverse of the stat and multiplied the damage instead. 

 

This is a really good point. It interested me enough that I decided to get on and see how the curves look and it's actually clearly not like the armor curve, y = x/(x+c). The only fit I could apply that looked even close was actually logarithmic (which fit the data I could take near perfectly) but that seems like a sort of bizarre choice for a curve. I wonder if the PvP/combat team picked it since it worked alright at lower values of rating they expected to operate at and now a single piece of gear is taking PvP rating up higher than a full set used to. 

 

Anyway, weird choice of equation aside, PvP Defense does seem ridiculously weak when you account for the way PvP Offense just subtracts from it post-conversion from rating. At current numbers, a full set of PvP Defense gear (looks like around 17000 rating) would give 106% more effective health against a player with no PvP offense. Put on two pieces of PvP offense gear (not even primary pieces but stuff like the shield/weapon attachment/etc) to get to around 3152 PvP offense (53.76%) and that's cut down to only 27.5% more effective health. Put on another 2 pieces of PvP offense gear and the full set of PvP Defense gear is only giving 15% more E.HP than no PvP Defense gear. So basically just Weapon Attachment, Support System, Shield and Implant as PvP pieces will counter the majority of the PvP Defense on a fully geared PvP player. And nobody's going to want to take much more than that anyway because having those kinds of diminishing returns on your Offense is really bad compared to the returns you'd get from the extra stats on PvE gear.

 

They could make PvP Offense subtract from the PvP Defense rating before the conversion to % damage reduction... That makes the mechanics behind both stats much more opaque to users than the current model but I doubt it'd be a change they'd be able to make before launch (I don't know of any mechanic in the game similar to that; it'd be like a flat armor reduction debuff instead of % armor penetration). Still, something needs to be done otherwise throwing just 3-6 random pieces of PvP gear and the rest as PvE gear will be optimal.


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#10 Ayestes

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:05 AM

Oh wow.  It's not even curved right then.  That's really messed up then.   It is really encouraging 3-4 pieces of gear right now and then the rest PvE.  

 

PvP Defense really needs to be like the Armor curve [1-x/(x+c)] and PvP Offense really needs to be a 1/[1-x/(x+c)] for damage multipliers.  Where x is the PvP stat and c is the constant (such as 12700 for Armor at level 50).   That way PvP Defense reduces it and PvP Offense increases it, and at equal values they cancel each other out.  Additionally that also means that each amount of stat is as effective as the previous relatively.  Then we don't worry about having too much PvP Offense or too much PvP Defense.  

 

Extra PvP Offense really needs to do extra damage, and the stats need to multiplicatively cancel out and not additively.  This is the only way it's going to work right.  


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#11 vanisha

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:06 AM

Oh...

It really has to go, i don't want to do pve (again) to get bis gear to pvp properly.

Such a big flaw in a game mechanism won't last for long... i believe :).


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#12 Ayestes

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:16 AM

I'd seriously consider having PvP Offense affect healing too, and PvP Defense reduce healing in the above system just like it would for damage.  That way healers have both stats to strive for.   I've been trying to find a flaw in it.  The biggest one that even seems like an issue at first glance is that your ally may be discouraged in bringing more PvP Defense because he'd diminish his allies healing, but that wouldn't actually happen since you'd still be healing him for the same amount of effective health (once you calculate his PvP mitigation from Defense).  The only actual flaw I see in it is the healer gadgets and amps don't appear to have any access to PvP Offense in them at all.  

 

Course in this system I'd recommend PvP Offense be called PvP Power and PvP Defense have a possible name change as well.  To get rid of the confusion.  I don't know if I'm considering all the variables on this one, but I don't think it's quite right to have two PvP stats and just have a healer able to safely ignore one of them.   The stats fighting to cancel each other out is where the balance in the PvP stats come from and to encourage them above additional PvE stats.  Especially when you continue to climb up item levels and are given more stats it could end up more a lot more skewed when a healer can try to ignore as much PvP Offense as they can in favor of PvP Defense or other attributes.  Maybe it's not even necessary and I'm overthinking it, but we won't really know in this patch given the state PvP stats are in.  


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#13 Pengu

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:20 AM

I, for one, am SOOOOOO excited to farm for max level 40-man PvE gear 5 (or 6?) slotted with max stats to do PvP. Can't wait.

 

Nevermind "You need PvP gear to PvP", because that's a dirty lie.


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#14 Frezz

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:30 AM

I, for one, am SOOOOOO excited to farm for max level 40-man PvE gear 5 (or 6?) slotted with max stats to do PvP. Can't wait.

 

Nevermind "You need PvP gear to PvP", because that's a dirty lie.

 

Can I join your raid guild?


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#15 Ayestes

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:53 PM

While I don't mind putting together PvE and PvP gear it's clearly not the intention as has been stated before.  The x50 stat value was a good start in encouraging them, but yeah it exposed the current system's weaknesses.  


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#16 Carlinn_Fisher

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

Further information, to chew on (and if this is not working as described, please let me know so we can look into it):

 

The relationship between PvP Offense and PvP Defense is multiplicative, such that:

 

PvPNetMitigation = PvPDefensePercent * (1 - PvPOffensePercent)

(value clamped between 0 and 1)

 

This PvP Mitigation works cooperatively with armor value to decrease total incoming damage. This interaction is also multiplicative. Such that:

 

NetDamage = IncomingDamage * (1-MitigationPercent) * (1-PvPNetMitigation)

 

Where MitigationPercent would be the percent of damage mitigated by target armor/resists.



#17 Ayestes

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:54 PM

So in that case if you have 50% PvP Offense and 50% PvP Defense it would cut down your PvP Net Mitigation to 25%.  Another example would be both as 25% giving us 18.75% PvP Net Mitigation. I don't think ti's working this way, and I think it's working additively based on their previous data and tests where they appear to have near 0% PvP Net Mitigation.   I think some further testing is required though to be sure since the differences between 2k PvP Defense or so in these cases could be pretty small and difficult to discern. 

 

I need a chance to mull around with this idea in general though to figure out if I like the way this is done in terms of scaling from high to low numbers.  Time to go play with numbers.  Is there any chance at all you could throw us the formula for the PvP Stats themselves?  Is it logarithmic?

 

Pengu has mentioned on stream his PvP Defense is up to almost 80%.  I don't know what the curve is, but assuming equal values of PvP Offense is this really what it's supposed to look like?   Even without the ratings curving the percentages the values are diminished as you get towards the top of it, and that's on top of the (assumed) logarithmic diminishing involved.  Assuming we are equal in PvP Offense and PvP Defense throughout the Tiers...

PvP Offense PvP Defense Net Mitigation
=========== =========== ==============
20.00%      20.00%      16%
25.00%      25.00%      19%
30.00%      30.00%      21%
35.00%      35.00%      23%
40.00%      40.00%      24%
45.00%      45.00%      25%
50.00%      50.00%      25%
55.00%      55.00%      25%
60.00%      60.00%      24%
65.00%      65.00%      23%
70.00%      70.00%      21%
75.00%      75.00%      19%
80.00%      80.00%      16%
85.00%      85.00%      13%

I really think the system needs to have PvP Offense merely amplify damage, because what happens above is just strange.  It looks like it's getting some extremely weird curves in determining value.   Even before rating curves come into play the value of later PvP Gear per percentage point drops severely which Mega and Glory are talking about below.  The way Armor works every 100 or so points is as worth as the next 100 or so points when you look at it relatively.  That's the way PvP Defense should work, and then PvP Offense should be the opposite.  That makes PVP Offense also continually worth it no matter the amount of rating given out.  The stat weights may need to be adjusted to prevent that from being overpowered afterwords, but I really think the way it is right now (or is intended to be) has too many diminishing effects stacked against it.  


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#18 Megatf

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:02 PM

Further information, to chew on (and if this is not working as described, please let me know so we can look into it):

 

The relationship between PvP Offense and PvP Defense is multiplicative, such that:

 

PvPNetMitigation = PvPDefensePercent * (1 - PvPOffensePercent)

(value clamped between 0 and 1)

 

This PvP Mitigation works cooperatively with armor value to decrease total incoming damage. This interaction is also multiplicative. Such that:

 

NetDamage = IncomingDamage * (1-MitigationPercent) * (1-PvPNetMitigation)

 

Where MitigationPercent would be the percent of damage mitigated by target armor/resists.

 

The problem comes in where you only wear 3 pieces to get 63% PvP Offense and Defense, and then the rest you can put in PvE pieces.  Having a 63% soft cap is cool and all, but don't make it so that way it takes 3 pieces of PvP gear to get to that cap.  At this point it's going to be about putting in 3 pieces to hit soft cap, then wearing Raid gear in every other slot with ridiculous imbuement procs, ridiculously powerful stat increases, and the extra armor to counter mitigation lost from a lack of PvP defense.

 

Also, PvP offense does nothing after I get a higher number than their PvP defense.  So if an Esper decided to rock 60% PvP Defense wearing 3 pieces of PvP gear, and I rocked 76% PvP Offense wearing full PvP gear, I wouldn't do any extra damage to them, which means there is absolutely zero incentive for a healer to wear ANY PvP defense whatsoever. 

 

Bardic, think about this.  Since PvP Offense does not grant extra damage, and is only there to negate extra mitigation on PvP Defense, and every class/spec in full PvP gear would/should have the SAME amount of PvP O/D as each other, then what is the point for a healer to wear PvP Defense in the first place? 

 

Facts:

1.  PvP Offense is useless for PURE healers

2.  PvP Defense provides extra mitigation if the person attacking them has less PvP Offense as they have PvP Defense.  (Increased Imbuements, HP, and Armor mitigation on Legendary/Artifact Armor negates this difference.)

3.  In full PvP gear in a perfect world, everyone has pretty much the same Offense and Defense.  (A DPS taking 3% PvP Offense, and a Healer taking 3% PvP defense amps + the same tier of PvP gear.)

4.  If a healer decided to wear ZERO PvP gear, against a player in FULL PvP gear they would take the same or less amount of damage than if they were wearing FULL PvP gear as well. 

5.  All a DPS needs to do is have enough PvP runes and/or 2-3 pieces of PvP gear to easily achieve soft cap.  Then put Legendary/Artifact gear with vastly superior stats, imbuements, and runeslots to make up for the 13% PvP Offense loss.  (I'm sure you're very aware of some of the ridiculous imbuements that are in the game on Legendary/Artifact armor.)  Also, if the target they are on is a healer with zero PvP defense, then they actually don't take a loss while gaining all the benefits. 

6.  This patch actually prioritized PvE gear over PvP more so than it was in the previous patches. 


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#19 MatchlessGlory

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

<snip>

 

Pretty much spot on.

 

Major Issues, in order-

 

1) Pure Healers have no reason to use ANY PvP gear at all.

2) PvP Stats have an extreme diminishing returns which means, even if they worked perfectly, you'd want to min/max the last couple pieces of gear with PvE gear since the PvP stat has such a reduced effect

3) You have no reason to continue to stack more PvP Offense after a certain point since it provides no additional damage


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#20 Megatf

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

If I decide to drop 1 piece of PvP armor for an item with an Imbuement I lose 1% PvP Offense and 1% PvP Defense.  1%.  Let me say it again, 1%.  The curve to get to 63% is so quick, that everything after that is such tiny increases, there is ZERO point to wearing them over imbuement items.  Take for example, Dasher on the BoE Epic World drop boots every class has, 50% dash regeneration and 5 seconds of 20% increased movement speed.  Let me spell this out for peeps, that means you can have the 20% runspeed up permanently since your dash tokens regenerate every 5 seconds.  For what?  1% PvP Offense and Defense?  Okay.

 

Bardic, I beg of you, please fix this system.  I have a multitude of systems I can post that would easily balance PvP gear to be BiS for PvP.


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