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The death of strategy: CC becoming useless.


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#1 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

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Edit4: In case it wasn't clearly explained... This isn't about Winning/Losing matches. it isn't about turtle comps increasing the duration of the match. It isn't about using CC to get a kill or trying to 100-0 someone. It is about the lack of CC effectiveness hurting strategy and reactionary gameplay does making the combat simple and stale.

 

Editx3:

http://imgur.com/9pm2kf6

 

Major change, might help with some of the issues!!! YAY

 

Editx2: a bit of a TL:DR 14 page thread.

 

To make sure I and others following along understand, the issue is:

In the game's current state, the ways to get out of Crowd Control are
1. Interrupt Armor
2. Crowd Control breaking trinkets
3. Crowd Control breaking abilities.
4. Cleanse abilities
5. AMP that takes off nearly 1/3rd of the time of Crowd Controls
6. Breakout Gameplay mechanics
7. Abilities that grant Interrupt Armor "for no reason", these abilities would be taken even without it.

(adding 8 - naruto)

8. Diminishing Returns that don't allow the same CC to be used for 10s after one use.

You're saying that it isn't any one of the above, individually, but the combination of all of them together is creating an environment where the current set of ways to inflict the current variety of Crowd Control are not only vastly outnumbered, but also inferior because the Crowd Control abilities are very specialized. This renders the ability to directly interact with your opponents and your allies to a very low degree.
 

^ The problem, summarized, details below.

 

 

edit: All gadgets now have a 1min CD down from 3mins, so 1min CD (2ia/CCbreaks) need to be added onto whatever is said below.

 

Been writing about this in other threads so I might as well make a threat about it by itself.

 

*This applies to all fields of pvp small and large, CC reduction, Low CD CC breaks/cleanses, and Diminishing Returns effective every gamemode/scale.*

 

What is killing off CCs?

 

 

An abundance Interrupt Armor, Currently every class has a way to generate a 20-30second Interrupt armor on their characrer(Even spread to allies in the area)

Medic :Protection probes with amp = 10second duration 20second CD and applies the buff + IA to allies

Engi: Obstruct Vision: 30second CD and 10second IA for allies(and amps for self IA like "on deflect gain 1IA for 5seconds)

Esper: Innate30s CD(self), phasmta armor on ally for 1ia lasting 10seconds on a 40/45s cd.

Spellsinger: Phase Shift(self) grants 1ia and 70% deflect for 3.2~ seconds at base on a 20sec cooldown

Warrior: Emergency Reserves(t0 self)(t8 allies) 25second cooldown for 6s of 1ia.

Stalker: Iron man Amp(every 2 instances of CC grants the stalker 1IA for 10seconds on 20sec cooldown)

 

*Pretty sure I am missing amps and other skills that generate IA, but these skills seem the most used/will be the most used postpatch)

 

PvP consumables: Grants 1IA for 10seconds on a 3min CD

Gadget: Can grant up to 2 IA for 10seconds on a 3min CD

 

CC breaks, on top of all the IA that each player can generate plus have more stacked on, if a CC does get through. You can still use your CC break that is also same/lower CD than most CCs.

 

Medic: Clam, 30s CD full CC break. Urgency(t4) Removes roots/holds/snares/tethers(20second CD) Antidote 6s cd Cleanse(Now removes root/snare/disorient/blind)

Engi: Shatter, 20s CD full CC break. Urgent Withdraw(t4) Removes roots/snares(?? CD, it has 3 charges and they current all refresh together)

Esper: Fade Out 30s CD full CC break. Shockwave(t8) Full CC break. Catharsis 6s cd Cleanse

Spellsinger: Void Slip 45s CD Full CC break, Purify 6s cd Cleanse
Warrior: Unstoppable Force 30s CD full CCbreak+grants immune to CC for 3.2s(t0), Leap(t4) breaks root/holds/snares/tethers(15s CD). Expulsion 8s CD cleanse

Stalker: Tactical Retreat(t4) 30s CD full CC Break

 

*I believe stalker/SS have less breaks/longer CDs because their gameplay mechanics allow them to have much more mobility/survivability in other ways like stealth for stalkers and SS movement + high on command deflect*

 

And don't forget...

Gadgets

  • Gadgets are now usable off the GCD.
  • Gadgets are now usable while casting.
  • Break Free can now be used while under all Crowd Control effects.

 

 

CC Breakout mechanics

Stun: Hold a key to reduce the duration of the stun, prepatch it reduced stuns by around 40% of their original duration

 

Knockdown: rolling out of a knockdown, Can be done instantly with the CC effect lasting as long as a typical dash/roll animation, reducing the generate Knockdown by atleast 50% its duration

 

Subdue: Picking up your lost weapon... Well.. can't really judge this because its based on luck, I have picked it back up within .5s and other times it could go full duration.

 

Tether: The tether anchors generally have low hp(4-5k) prepatch this was about 1-2 hits, post patch I can't be sure, but the effective duration of a tether was around .5s-1.5s for any player that can deal damage.

 

(stealing this from pengu)

A. Stun - Can be broken with commands,  CC break

B. Root - Can be cleansed, CC break, Leap skills

C. Knockdown - Can be dashed out of, CC break

D. Subdue - Pick up weapon (melee is easier than ranged), CC break.

E. Blind - Can be cleansed, CC break

F. Healing Debuff - Can be cleansed

G. Disorient - No one uses this. but can still be CCbreak/cleansed

H. Tether - CC break/Leap Skills + hit the damn thing it has 4-5k hp.

 

CC Resilience:

reduces the duration of a CC, each class has this AMP series which grants 30% reduction of a CC effect, this makes a typical 3-4second stun + 30% reduc + Breakout mechanics lasts around .5s-1s

 

Diminishing Returns

Also don't forget that if you do land a stun, you can't land another stun on that same player for the next 10seconds.
DR current works in this sense. Same type CCs can't be used on top of each other for 10 seconds.

So end of the day, even if you get thru the players IA, chance them while their CC break is down, they can still either cleanse(6s cd) or use a breakout mechanic to lower an CC stacked with 30% CC resilience that makes it past giving you an effective CC of .5-1.5s resulting in a 10second DR for that CC type.

Honestly tho. All this seems insane, but sadly CCs prepatch were still very effective because the TTK[time to kill] was really low that the .5-1.5s duration of a CC effect could still result disaster for anyone.

 

Postpatch, with a TTK that is supposedly going to be increased(Takes longer to kill a player) due to all the Damage nerfs and what the class dev has said is intended[higher TTK],


Why is this important? Don't players generally hate CCs? "I want to be able to control my character whaaaaa" and whatever nonsense?

CCs are important to gameplay to add strategy and depth to the game. Without CCs being effective the gameplay turns into a sort of strafing wars with players just swinging at each other and the one with the better gear/luckier crits would usually win. Compared to the player that wastes his CCs or uses them poorly while another player uses them to gain an advantage. and this in the sense of a 1v1 fight. Increasing the scaling to 2/3s arenas, and the same problem, lack of CC, players just circling each other spamming their damage keys and heals.

The gameplay will turn into a brute force style. Where players taking heals and damage until one time the burst lines up to overcome to heals, or the healer runs out of focus, or some Line of Sight issues. Effective CC helps make the combat more complex. If the most complex play comes from dodging a skill... in this game? We are in trouble.

 

This all is more of a big PSA...

This was the meta during 2/3s last patch. Stacking of IA + cc breaks and I don't think it is about to change as it just became easier to remove some CCs and harder for players to actually kill each other.

 

Going forward it could use some changes... I wouldn't know where to start because I am just a player and Carbine doesn't pay me to balance the game.


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#2 nbs

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:31 AM

So, things such as offense pulls break/remove 1 IA -- the most coordinated team (skill wise) will probably win. IAs are great for small scale PvP (2s and 3s) so you won't be CC to death; they won't be noticed as much in larger scale PvP (5s and up) due to team composition. Two (2) offense pull (breaking 2 IAs) into a knock down and/or stun + burst combo. As offense pulls themselves do not have a DR they can be coordinated to break IAs as needed. 

 

This is only one example.



#3 STRoark

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:31 AM

Been writing about this in other threads so I might as well make a threat about it by itself.

 

What is killing off CCs?

 

Going forward it could use some changes... I wouldn't know where to start because I am just a player and Carbine doesn't pay me to balance the game.

How about such an ability as medic's Dematerialize? Pretty cool for removing IA and on a short cd. Don't other classes have something similar? Do not despair!


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#4 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:41 AM

How about such an ability as medic's Dematerialize? Pretty cool for removing IA and on a short cd. Don't other classes have something similar? Do not despair!

Well, i don't know how often you played but any class with any number of Item specials, usually has 5-8 buffs on their bar at any given point in a fight. So yeah trying to use dematerialize to remove 1ia rather than just using your stun to break it, seems unreasonable/unreliable

 

And IA again is just a part of it, preventing the CC from landing, then comes what happens when a CC does land.

 

 

 

So, things such as offense pulls break/remove 1 IA -- the most coordinated team (skill wise) will probably win. IAs are great for small scale PvP (2s and 3s) so you won't be CC to death; they won't be noticed as much in larger scale PvP (5s and up) due to team composition. Two (2) offense pull (breaking 2 IAs) into a knock down and/or stun + burst combo. As offense pulls themselves do not have a DR they can be coordinated to break IAs as needed. 

 

This is only one example.

 

Read the thread. IA isn't the only thing that makes CC worthless.. secondly read this that is in my OP. How about CC reduce/CCbreaks/DR all things I wrote above..... Don't nitpick.

 

Also please read the patchnotes "offense pulls don't have a DR?"

 

"The following Crowd Control effects now have Diminishing Returns in PvP: Pull, Knockback, and Position Switch."

 

Also, since I am guessing you just read the first 2 sentences.

 

 

Honestly tho. All this seems insane, but sadly CCs prepatch were still very effective because the TTK[time to kill] was really low that the .5-1.5s duration of a CC effect could still result disaster for anyone.

 

Postpatch, with a TTK that is supposedly going to be increased(Takes longer to kill a player) due to all the Damage nerfs and what the class dev has said is intended[higher TTK],
 

 

 

Do you disagree there? Sometimes I think you just nitpick arguments just to talk nbs.


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#5 Ayestes

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

They really need to cut back on all the Interrupt Armor being given out, and CC Breaks probably need longer cooldowns.   Could make some adjustments on stuns and knockdowns for how much the breakout gameplay can reduce the effects, but I'm not sure if that'd be overkill.  


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#6 Frezz

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:55 AM

How about such an ability as medic's Dematerialize? Pretty cool for removing IA and on a short cd. Don't other classes have something similar? Do not despair!

 

I think people are forgetting how you can offensive cleanse in wildstar.

 

But yes they need less IA for sure.


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#7 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:59 AM

I think people are forgetting how you can offensive cleanse in wildstar.

Concentration/Rage proc/HoTs/Buffs/On heals buffs/21031200 AMP buffs(damage/defensive buffs) Good luck trying to use dematerilize to counter IA.

Don't get me wrong, it has a place in removing buffs, but pengu once tried on you Neverheals to aim catharsist8 on your emp/prot probes, worked about 30% of the time, if that. Something else randomly got cleansed. Because the item procs/amp proc buffs appear and refresh constantly.

 

Sniping something in particular doesn't work out, go look at your couple last matches and tell me how many times Carthh/whoever you have aimed has less than 3 Buffs on him


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#8 nbs

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:04 PM

snip

 

I stand corrected on the Pull.  the rest -- IAs in Large vs Small scale PvP -- still applies. There are multiple CCs that break multiple IAs; as a Medic a T8 Paralytic Surge is a wonderful example. 

 

TTK was increased because of CC -- you could die in one CC chain before you can react; we only have once CC breaker. Increasing CC times would negate the purpose of damage reduction change in PvP.

 

You're still going based on the premise of small scale PvP when the game also offers large scale PvP.



#9 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:09 PM

I stand corrected on the Pull.  the rest -- IAs in Large vs Small scale PvP -- still applies. There are multiple CCs that break multiple IAs; as a Medic a T8 Paralytic Surge is a wonderful example. 

 

TTK was increased because of CC -- you could die in one CC chain before you can react; we only have once CC breaker. Increasing CC times would negate the purpose of damage reduction change in PvP.

Again IA is a small part of it! Why can't you get that. Read my post please. just do that for me lol.

 

Are you going to make me retype about how CCs are on 20-30s cooldowns as are CC breaks?! and that now half the CCs can be cleansed? And how even if you do land one the duration of the CC is crap because the ones can't be cleansed have breakouts + 30% cc duration reduction? and how after all that there is still a 10s DR on using the same time of CC? and that now that it takes longer to kill someone the effectiveness of CCs has gone down by alot?

 

Please, just read the whole thread instead of commenting on the first few sentences. This isn't IA HAS RUINED CCs, its everything + IA has ruined CCs. I just rather reply back to a comment from someone that took in the whole post rather than just a portion of it.


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#10 nbs

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:14 PM

Calm down. You want to CC from 100% to dead -- the game does not want you to do that which is why there are so many options to COUNTER CC.

 

Well timed CC will still be able to kill someone; just not from 100% health.



#11 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:19 PM

Calm down. You want to CC from 100% to dead -- the game does not want you to do that which is why there are so many options to COUNTER CC.

 

Well timed CC will still be able to kill someone; just not from 100% health.

 

 

 

This all is more of a big PSA...

This was the meta during 2/3s last patch. Stacking of IA + cc breaks and I don't think it is about to change as it just became easier to remove some CCs and harder for players to actually kill each other.

 

Going forward it could use some changes... I wouldn't know where to start because I am just a player and Carbine doesn't pay me to balance the game.

From the main post again, I don't see where I am saying we should be able to CC someone to death. Small scale or large scale, doesnt change CC reduction + DR.

 

Alright pretty sure you are trolling at this point. I really don't want to keep re-quoting my main post. I just can't reply to you anymore after this nbs. Sorry


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#12 nbs

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:21 PM

You're still going based on the premise of small scale PvP when the game also offers large scale PvP.

 

 

There are multiple CCs that break multiple IAs; as a Medic a T8 Paralytic Surge is a wonderful example. 

 

Have a nice day!



#13 Hansslowlo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:25 PM

The death of strategy: CC becoming useless

 

 

 Quite a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I translate this to ...

 

"Me and my buds are used to being able to stun-lock some poor sap until he is dead without him getting a single ability off. But now we actually have to learn and execute a real strategy to win. That sounds too hard for us and we want it the way we know and like."

 

Complain as you will, but I seriously doubt you will get what you want in this game in this regard.

 

I'd be working on building those skilz and learn how to win without 30 second stun-locks. Contrary to your hyperbolic topic title, this game makes strategy more important.

 

 


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#14 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:30 PM

 Quite a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I translate this to ...

 

"Me and my buds are used to being able to stun-lock some poor sap until he is dead without him getting a single ability off. But now we actually have to learn and execute a real strategy to win. That sounds too hard for us and we want it the way we know and like."

 

Complain as you will, but I seriously doubt you will get what you want in this game in this regard.

 

I'd be working on building those skilz and learn how to win without 30 second stun-locks. Contrary to your hyperbolic topic title, this game makes strategy more important.

My title might be a bit over the top, but the information in it is as factual as I could be.

And again it lowers the amount of strategy involved as the game turns into a slug fest because CC is ineffective. If you read the thread, it previously and going into the future still isn't possible for anyone to get 'stun locked' the effective duration of the avg CC pre-patch was .5s-1.5s. and I don't get how I am complaining, I am stating the ways to counter CCs and how they all stack on top of each other to effectively make CC ineffective.

 

Can I ask, What is a "real strategy" in a 2v2 arena match that has no effective use of CC? Say its a heal/dps vs heal/dps. How would that fight go?


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#15 Pengu

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:34 PM

 Quite a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I translate this to ...

 

"Me and my buds are used to being able to stun-lock some poor sap until he is dead without him getting a single ability off. But now we actually have to learn and execute a real strategy to win. That sounds too hard for us and we want it the way we know and like."

 

Complain as you will, but I seriously doubt you will get what you want in this game in this regard.

 

I'd be working on building those skilz and learn how to win without 30 second stun-locks. Contrary to your hyperbolic topic title, this game makes strategy more important.

 

I translate this to ...

 

"I have not done level 50 arena and have no idea how hard it is to kill a healer/DPS combo without CC's (let alone tank/DPS). I have not read the latest patch notes buffing survivability, buffing healing, and nerfing damage. I have no idea what I am talking about I just do level 20 BG's all day."

 

Complain as you like, but this will make any healer/DPS matches 30m long.

 

I'd be working on armchair theorycrafting while you go out and test, and I'll complain about how your results are wrong.



#16 Hansslowlo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:44 PM

We all make assumptions. Make yours at will. You know nothing of my experience in this game.

 

I'm not the one complaining here. You are.

 

I'm good with the system and do not cry about things being too hard.

 

Oh dear me, I have to adjust and adapt to a new style of play and learn some new tricks and more tightly coordinate our team's actions or we might not win; or (gasp) it make take too long to lose.

 

You don't like the CC and IA in the game. Noted. However, that does NOT signal the end of strategy. It makes it more important.

 

But you all continue to complain about it if it makes you feel better.


My imaginary friend tells me you have serious problems.


#17 nbs

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:46 PM

Get 'em Johnny!



#18 Halper

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

We all make assumptions. Make yours at will. You know nothing of my experience in this game.

 

I'm not the one complaining here. You are.

 

I'm good with the system and do not cry about things being too hard.

 

Oh dear me, I have to adjust and adapt to a new style of play and learn some new tricks and more tightly coordinate our team's actions or we might not win; or (gasp) it make take too long to lose.

 

You don't like the CC and IA in the game. Noted. However, that does NOT signal the end of strategy. It makes it more important.

 

But you all continue to complain about it if it makes you feel better.

hmm

 

"Can I ask, What is a "real strategy" in a 2v2 arena match that has no effective use of CC? Say its a heal/dps vs heal/dps. How would that fight go?"

 

I want to ask that again and can you please answer me. I might be looking at it a bit bias due to my experience, so please if you can help me understand how making CC less valuable increases strategy I would be pretty thankful.


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#19 Thori

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

Good post from someone who understand pvp mechanics.

 

I think, after tests from next beta  week end, devs will realize and correct that (a little bit at least).


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#20 IIIII

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:50 PM

He's not wrong. I've completely stopped putting CC on my bar because it's literally a waste of precious real estate LAS.


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