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Pre/Post Patch 4/8 numbers [Updated]

Patch 4/8 Numbers comparison theorycrafting

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#1 Rex_Marksley

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

> > > > > > > > > > SECTION 1 < < < < < < < < < <

1) Scaling is based on the full duration of the spell. The patch notes list the tick/single hit scaling so an ability like Rapid Fire needs to be multiplied 12 times to get its full duration scaling, whereas quick draw is only multiplied 3 times.
2) Ignite is an exception where it lists the total dot scaling and end dot scaling. In this case the 2 values are added together to get the full duration scaling.
3) Damage is based off a level 50 with 2k AP. Armor and other stats/AMPs/Gear are not included for the first part of this post. Below values are base values before tiering. This means the buffs will be higher with tiering and the nerfs will be smaller with tiering.
4) Damage Formula:
- ((Base Scale x LvL)+(AP scale x AP)+(Tier AP Scale x AP x Tier))

---------- Old Scaling / Damage -----------
................ Base Scale ..... AP scale ..... Tier AP Scale ..... Tier 0 ..... Tier Damage
S:QD............... 40.41 ....... 0.7575 ............. 0.0441 ......... 3535.5 ............ 88.2
QD ................. 14.82 ....... 0.2778 .............. 0.0441 ......... 1296.6 ........... 88.2
S:CS4 ............. 52.57 ...... 0.9855 ............. 0.1054 .......... 4599.5 ......... 210.8
CS4 ................ 52.57 ....... 0.9855 ............. 0.1054 ......... 4599.5 ......... 210.8
S:CS3 ............ 26.29 ....... 0.4929 ............. 0.0527 ......... 2300.3 .......... 105.4
CS3 ................ 26.29 ....... 0.4929 ............. 0.0527 ......... 2300.3 ......... 105.4
S:CS2 ............ 13.16 ....... 0.2466 ............. 0.0264 .......... 1151.2 ........... 52.8
CS2 ............... 13.16 ........ 0.2466 ............. 0.0264 ......... 1151.2 ........... 52.8
S:CS1 ............ 10.51 ........ 0.1971 ............ 0.0211 ............ 919.7 ........... 42.2
CS1 ............... 10.51 ........ 0.1971 ............. 0.0211 ........... 919.7 ........... 42.2
S:IG ............... 77.36 ........ 1.4505 ............. 0.0460 ......... 6769.0 ........... 92.0
IG ................... 19.48 ....... 0.3662 ............. 0.0460 ......... 1706.4 ........... 92.0
S:WB .............. 95.59 ....... 1.7908 ............. 0.1100 ......... 8361.1 ......... 220.0
WB ................. 55.00 ....... 1.0329 ............. 0.1100 ......... 4815.8 ......... 220.0
S:CH ............... 8.95 ........ 0.1676 .............. 0.0046 .......... 782.7 ............. 9.2
CH .................. 8.95 ......... 0.1676 ............. 0.0046 ........... 782.7 ............ 9.2
S:RF ............ 151.08 ........ 2.8320 ............. 0.1752 ....... 13218.0 ......... 350.4
RF .................. 99.84 ....... 2.0484 ............. 0.1752 ......... 9123.8 ......... 350.4
S:FB ............... 22.94 ....... 0.4302 ............. 0.0090 ......... 2007.4 ........... 18.0
FB .................. 22.94 ....... 0.4302 ............. 0.0090 ......... 2007.4 ........... 18.0
S:AS30% ......... 23.15 ...... 0.4340 ............. 0.0275 ......... 2025.5 ........... 55.0
S:TS ............... 90.30 ....... 1.6923 ............. 0.1539 ......... 7899.6 ......... 307.8
TS .................. 90.30 ....... 1.6923 ............. 0.1539 ......... 7899.6 ......... 307.8
S:AM .............. 95.70 ....... 1.7535 ............. 0.0600 ......... 8292.0 ......... 120.0
AM ................. 42.36 ....... 0.7935 ............. 0.0600 ......... 3705.0 ......... 120.0

----------- New Scaling / Damage ----------
................ Base Scale .... AP scale ..... Tier AP Scale ..... Tier 0 ....... Tier Bonus
S:QD ............. 41.07 ........ 0.7698 ............ 0.0504 ......... 3593.1 .......... 100.8
QD ................ 16.50 ........ 0.3087 ............. 0.0504 ......... 1442.4 .......... 100.8
S:CS4 ............ 59.78 ....... 1.1206 ............. 0.1212 ......... 5230.2 .......... 242.4
CS4 ............... 59.78 ....... 1.1206 ............. 0.1212 ......... 5230.2 .......... 242.4
S:CS3 ............ 29.90 ....... 0.5604 ............. 0.0606 ......... 2615.8 .......... 121.2
CS3 ............... 29.90 ....... 0.5604 ............. 0.0606 ......... 2615.8 .......... 121.2
S:CS2 ........... 14.96 ........ 0.2805 ............. 0.0304 ......... 1309.0 ............ 60.8
CS2 ............... 14.96 ....... 0.2805 ............. 0.0304 ......... 1309.0 ............ 60.8
S:CS1 ............ 11.95 ....... 0.2240 ............. 0.0243 ......... 1045.5 ............ 48.6
CS1 ............... 11.95 ....... 0.2240 ............. 0.0243 ......... 1045.5 ............ 48.6
S:IG ............... 57.75 ....... 1.0836 ............. 0.0735 ......... 5054.7 .......... 147.0
IG .................. 27.00 ....... 0.5076 ............. 0.0735 ......... 2365.2 .......... 147.0
S:WB ............. 85.25 ...... 1.6005 .............. 0.1254 ......... 7463.5 .......... 250.8
WB ................ 65.23 ...... 1.2243 .............. 0.1254 .......... 5710.1 .......... 250.8
S:CH ............. 12.39 ....... 0.2325 .............. 0.0111 ......... 1084.5 ............ 22.2
CH ................. 12.39 ...... 0.2325 .............. 0.0111 ......... 1084.5 ............ 22.2
S:RF ............ 141.48 ....... 2.6544 ............. 0.2016 ....... 12382.8 .......... 403.2
RF ................ 110.76 ........ 2.0784 ............ 0.2016 ......... 9694.8 .......... 403.2
S:FB .............. 28.90 ....... 0.5416 ............. 0.0300 ........ 2528.2 ............ 60.0
FB ................. 28.90 ....... 0.5416 ............. 0.0300 ......... 2528.2 ............ 60.0
S:AS30% ....... 29.18 ........ 0.5470 ............ 0.0378 ......... 2553.0 ............ 75.6
S:TS .............. 89.25 ....... 1.6725 ............. 0.1770 ......... 7807.5 .......... 354.0
TS ................. 89.25 ....... 1.6725 ............. 0.1770 ......... 7807.5 .......... 354.0
S:AM ............. 80.13 ....... 1.5024 ............. 0.0717 ......... 7011.3 .......... 143.4
AM ................. 49.41 ....... 0.9264 ............ 0.0717 ......... 4323.3 .......... 143.4

---------- % change between the old and new data @ T0 ----------
QD:.......... Base: 11.24% Buff..... Surged: 1.63% Buff..... Tier: 14.29% Buff.....
CS4:........ Base: 13.71% Buff..... Surged: 13.71% Buff..... Tier: 14.99% Buff.....
CS3:........ Base: 13.72% Buff..... Surged: 13.72% Buff..... Tier: 14.99% Buff.....
CS2:........ Base: 13.71% Buff..... Surged: 13.71% Buff..... Tier: 15.15% Buff.....
CS1:........ Base: 13.68% Buff..... Surged: 13.68% Buff..... Tier: 15.17% Buff.....
IG:........... Base: 38.61% Buff..... Surged: 25.33% Nerf..... Tier: 59.78% Buff.....
WB:......... Base: 18.57% Buff..... Surged: 10.72% Nerf..... Tier: 14.00% Buff.....
CH:......... Base: 38.56% Buff..... Surged: 38.56% Buff..... Tier: 141.30% Buff.....
RF:.......... Base: 6.26% Buff....... Surged: 6.32% Nerf....... Tier: 15.07% Buff.....
FB:.......... Base: 25.94% Buff..... Surged: 25.94% Buff..... Tier: 233.33% Buff.....
AS30%: .. Base: 26.04% Buff..... Surged: 19.17% Buff..... Tier: 30.18% Buff.....
TS:.......... Base: 1.17% Nerf...... Surged: 1.17% Nerf....... Tier: 15.01% Buff.....
AM:......... Base: 16.69% Buff..... Surged: 15.45% Nerf..... Tier: 19.50% Buff.....

---------- Other Changes ----------
-----Spell Surge-----
- Increased In-Combat Regeneration to match the Out of Combat Regeneration (This doubles the old regeneration rate)
- Can now be activated while sprinting.
-----Abilities-----
QD:
- Tier 8 Bonus: Grants 10% Assault Power, up from 6.5%
- The movement speed increase is no longer higher than it should be.
CS:
- Cooldown: 10 seconds, up from 7 seconds.
- Tier 8 Bonus: 99% Assault Power, up from 94.9%
- Surge Bonus: Reaches Max Charge in 1.4 seconds, up from 1.2 seconds
RF:
- 10 second cooldown, up from 8 seconds
FB:
- Cooldown 8 seconds, up from 5 seconds
TS:
- Can be cast while moving
- Cooldown 18 seconds, down from 20 seconds
- Surge Bonus
-- Cast 1: 1.3 seconds cast time, up from 1.1 seconds
-- Cast 2: 0.65 seconds cast time, up from 0.55 seconds
-- Cast 3: 0.333 seconds cast time, up from 0.275 seconds
- The 4th charge of the spell, True Shot, should now cast properly.
AM:
- Can no longer hit player pets
- Cooldown 12 seconds, up from 8 seconds
WB:
- Cooldown 14 sec up from 12 sec
CH:
- Cooldown 7 sec up from 6 sec

-----AMPS-----
- Deadly Chain: Increases Physical damage dealt by 1.5% per stack, down from 4%.
- Deadly Chain: Increases Magical damage dealt by 1.5% per stack, down from 4%.
- Gunslinger: Increases Critical Hit Chance by 2.5% per stack, down from 3%.
- Power Surge: Increases Assault and Support power by 8.6%, down from 12%.
- Surge Damage: Increases outgoing damage by 10%, down from 20%.
- Vengeance: Duration decreased from 10 second to 5 seconds.
- Vengeance: Strikethrough buff decreased from 25% to 6%.
- Withering Magic: Reduces Magic Resistance by 7.2%, down from 8%.

---------- additional notes ----------
Due to the increased cooldown of several abilities what appears to be a buff is actually a nerf. While the spell hits harder you cant cast it as much so the damage you can deal with it in say... 10 min goes down.
CS: --- @T0 - nerf of 13.80% to base damage --- @T0 - nerf of 18.21% to surge damage
RF: --- @T0 - nerf of 32.38% to base damage ---- @T0 - nerf of 19.70% to surge damage
FB: --- @T0 - nerf of 21.28% to base damage
AM: --- @T0 - nerf of 21.28% to base damage ---- @T0 - nerf of 32.59% to surge damage
WB: --- @T0 - nerf of 23.49% to surge damage

> > > > > > > > > > SECTION 2 < < < < < < < < < <

--- To calculate the specs I did roughly this...
1) Calculated buffs from AMPs and abilities that would be active during a spells cast to the base stats of AP,Crit,CritSev and damage boosts.
2) Using the modified AP value this formula was used to calculate the spells damage:
((AP scale x AP)+(Lvl scale x Lvl)+(AP tier scale x AP x tier))=N.
3) I then calculated the average damage boost gained by critical strike chance and critical severity with this formula: (using the AMP buffed stats of course)
((1-%crit)(N x %boost))+(%crit x ((N x %boost) x %crit sev))
4) I then went through the rotation and on a per spell basis calculated how much damage they would do when cast at that moment in the rotation. (Easier than it sounds but it takes forever to do)

Because I cannot test in game a few things will have to be assumed:
1) The specs use the following stats: 2000 AP, 20% crit chance, 180% critical severity
2) The target being damaged has no deflect chance and only the stated %resist (armor). Nothing else.
3) A 0.05 sec (1/20th sec) buffer is added between clicks to account for sever lag and human error. Or any possible GCD clipping that may occur.
4) The ability que option is turned on. Hold to continue casting is turned off.
5) Spellsurge toggling is treated as an instant cast taking 0.05 sec to turn on and 0.05 sec to turn off. (This appears to hold true in game)

-----AMPs used across all specs.-----
Cooldowns 1-2-3: Cooldowns reduced by 15% (currently bugged for many spells)
Critical Hit 1-2-3: Critical Hit + 6%
Critical Hit Severity 1-2-3: Critical Hit Severity + 12%
Strikethrough 1-2-3: Strikethrough +3%
Assault Power 1-2-3: Assault Power increased by 7.6890625% (confirmed in game)
Assassinate: Unlocks the ability Assassinate
----Numbers in [[Brackets]] are the old numbers.----
Power Surge: 8.6% [[12%]] ap/sp when spellsurge is active
Critical Surge: 6 spellpower on a crit (can only occur once every 6 sec)
Trigger Fingers: using Quick Draw reduces cooldowns by 0.5 sec
Deadly Chain: Using physical damage abilities Increases physical damage dealt by 1.5% [[4%]] (stacks 3 times)
Deadly Chain: Using magic damage abilities Increases magic damage dealt by 1.5% [[4%]] (stacks 3 times)
Surge Damage: Using a surged ability grants empower: 10% [[20%]] increased damage for 4 sec.
Gunslinger: using an ability with a cooldown grants 2.5% [[3%]] critical hit chance (stacks 3 times)

-note-
The +FB and +AS are there because they are instant cast and do not significantly affect the rotation when you throw them in. It also makes the rotations look cleaner.
The above set of AMPs will get you the most damage (unless you think homeward bound will prevent your death allowing you to keep dealing enough damage to handle no gunslinger, surge power, or 3% stikethrough AMP)

> > > > > > > > > > SECTION 3 < < < < < < < < < <

-see next post- (below this one)

Feel free to point out any errors so I can correct them.

Edited by Rex_Marksley, 22 April 2014 - 09:19 AM.


#2 Rex_Marksley

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:41 PM

-deleted due to inaccuracies in the data-
I will redo this post with the new numbers as soon as possible.

Edited by Rex_Marksley, 22 April 2014 - 09:20 AM.


#3 Derail

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:02 PM

Thanks Rex - Good stuff.

 

Glad you addressed the CD changes as well.

Definitely curious to see the numbers on rotations for Physical vs. Magic now.


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#4 Rizzee

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:12 PM

Judging from the numbers alone physical will be well ahead of magical



#5 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:15 PM

Holy shit.... am i seeing that right?

 

Tier: 233.33% Buff  on Flame burst tiers? :o  And a dot with the T8 bonus?

 

But it looks like you said its an over all nerf to damage?

 

-am i reading this right?



#6 Derail

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:21 PM

Holy shit.... am i seeing that right?

 

Tier: 233.33% Buff  on Flame burst tiers? :o  And a dot with the T8 bonus?

 

But it looks like you said its an over all nerf to damage?

 

-am i reading this right?

Yeah I saw that too - with the CD reduction from T4 this could pack a punch from 35m. Do ignite ticks proc the 0.5s T4?

 

His comparison is T0 - have to figure that in.

 

Rex how hard to show a T4/T8 comparison?


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#7 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:29 PM

Yeah that might be a crazy as hell amount of damage pumped out. Thats something that would def need to be purged in PVP or take some serious dmg.



#8 Derail

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

Judging from the numbers alone physical will be well ahead of magical

 

I actually almost typed that out as well - but the tier buffs on magic skills and base/surged buffs are huge (with surged ignite being the exception)


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#9 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:44 PM

I actually almost typed that out as well - but the tier buffs on magic skills and base/surged buffs are huge (with surged ignite being the exception)

 

yeah the scaling on the magic side looks... interesting...

 

If the numbers pan out it seems like its pretty even between the 2 now... maybe a slight DPS difference between the 2.

I would love to make a MM build just for the debuff since the group utility is wicked if you have other magic users.

I know a few progression guilds i have talk to actually plan to have a healer run the debuff rather than dps. (i find it odd, but whatever floats their boat.)

 

From a PVP standpoint it would be good to have (the few dots in the game) hit like a truck just to encourage the use of proper purges rather than spamming it on CD.



#10 Rex_Marksley

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

Holy shit.... am i seeing that right?
 
Tier: 233.33% Buff  on Flame burst tiers? :o  And a dot with the T8 bonus?
 
But it looks like you said its an over all nerf to damage?
 
-am i reading this right?

Haha yeah. The previous tier bonus on flame burst was pitiful so it looks massive :)
But the increased cooldown hits the spell hard.

@T8 pre patch: 2151.4, Post Patch 3008.2
Including the T8 bonus.... 22.42% nerf from the patch

#11 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:45 PM

hmmm sounds like the CD was added to use FB more of a burst finisher/initiator maybe? Would make sense on CB... (too bad on fb u need a crit proc)

 

I will miss spaming FB on CD though it fit perfectly into my rotation... who knows how the new CD's will affect my rotation now.... oy...



#12 LittleBrownMan

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:59 PM

For FB, I just see the dev matching up the "Crit on use" CD similar to the other classes...hopefully they keep an eye on it and also make it hit just as hard as the other classes...but i guess the T4 of it may balance it out 


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#13 Gr1mnar

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:45 PM

I know overall you're saying it's a nerf, and I was disappointed to see all of the increased CDs myself(I'd rather not have more QD spam lol), but how do you think Trigger Fingers will factor in?  I'm almost thinking they increased the CDs maybe to compensate for them making Trigger Fingers too good?  I found it mandatory before and well now more than ever it seems.



#14 Aeden

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:44 PM

Flame Burst likely had its cooldown increased because of the fact that you could have ridiculously good uptime on the T8 debuff. At higher-end gear, that would have made it an insane build to use since it scaled very nicely with AP (35% AP/s on somewhere near 70-80% uptime).

 

As far as the overall increase in cooldowns, I'm getting the vibe they want us to have to take more than just 5 attacks. The old magic build (Ign_T8, FB_T8, AM_T5) will now have us casting Quick Draw ~60% of the time, which isn't good for business. The physical build Shunn gave is not as bad at around 32%, though that's before looking at things like True Shot's CD reduction when surged. However, since you only need to cast Quick Draw once every 5s to keep the buff up 100% of the time, that's 12% of the time you could be spending on something else. Mind you this is all before Trigger Fingers, which was required before and is more required now, so numbers are not exact.



#15 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:07 PM

Flame Burst likely had its cooldown increased because of the fact that you could have ridiculously good uptime on the T8 debuff. At higher-end gear, that would have made it an insane build to use since it scaled very nicely with AP (35% AP/s on somewhere near 70-80% uptime).

 

As far as the overall increase in cooldowns, I'm getting the vibe they want us to have to take more than just 5 attacks. The old magic build (Ign_T8, FB_T8, AM_T5) will now have us casting Quick Draw ~60% of the time, which isn't good for business. The physical build Shunn gave is not as bad at around 32%, though that's before looking at things like True Shot's CD reduction when surged. However, since you only need to cast Quick Draw once every 5s to keep the buff up 100% of the time, that's 12% of the time you could be spending on something else. Mind you this is all before Trigger Fingers, which was required before and is more required now, so numbers are not exact.

 

 I don't really bother much with PVE in this game but im curious to think what your PVE rotation would look like now with the changes?



#16 Rex_Marksley

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:52 PM

I know overall you're saying it's a nerf, and I was disappointed to see all of the increased CDs myself(I'd rather not have more QD spam lol), but how do you think Trigger Fingers will factor in?  I'm almost thinking they increased the CDs maybe to compensate for them making Trigger Fingers too good?  I found it mandatory before and well now more than ever it seems.

Im thinking the increased cooldowns were made because trigger fingers was to powerful. Based on just a couple specs it seemed like adding a 6th spell to your rotation was a DPS loss. Now.... Im not sure. Im gonna update the thread with roations as I work them out. As well as what combination of AMPs and spell tiers will lead to (hopefully) the highest damage.
I will also compare the post patch rotation w/ and w/o trigger fingers. (Cause sometimes you just cant find that AMP)

That and it was a bit annoying having a bunch of 4-6 sec cooldowns all over the place. Everything's off cooldown all the time! Now its more like: stuff actually has a cooldown!
At least thats what im thinking its gonna feel like.

#17 Epsilon_Knight

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

The overall nerf to T0 damage looks baaaaad for leveling spellslingers.

 

I'd be interested in whether tiering up can bridge the gap, and what tiers (and consequently, level) finally see the damage break even with current/past.

 

Certainly didn't see a well-concealed nerf coming.



#18 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:10 AM

The overall nerf to T0 damage looks baaaaad for leveling spellslingers.

 

I'd be interested in whether tiering up can bridge the gap, and what tiers (and consequently, level) finally see the damage break even with current/past.

 

Certainly didn't see a well-concealed nerf coming.

 

It really makes me wonder if we have our class designer working on our class....

Not sure if our designer has our best interest in mind... lol



#19 Tybald

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:01 PM

It really makes me wonder if we have our class designer working on our class....

Not sure if our designer has our best interest in mind... lol

I think you're hitting it on the head - feels like our current class designer isn't a real advocate of the class but just doing what he's told.

 

We need a passionate believer in the exceptionalism of spellsinger in our lead



#20 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:08 PM

Last i checked isn't he also balancing the engineer?

Matts engi build is like having a truck hit u in the face going 160mph? Where is my truck hitting people in the face at 160mph?





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