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"UI 2.0 Patch" AMP Balance Changes


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#1 Aodz

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:59 AM

Hey all,

 

I am seeing a lot of passionate discussion (mourning) about the AMP balance changes and I wanted to take a moment to clarify (commiserate) with you.

 

AMPs were, in general, severely overpowered and had to be adjusted (nerfed) to bring TTK to where we desired it to be (players were doing too much damage). Some classes had more of these overpowered AMPs than other classes and therefore required more… adjustments.

 

However, rest assured that this is not the final balance pass WildStar will ever receive and our on-going goal is to keep all classes viable in both PvE and PvP. We will be monitoring class performance throughout all aspects of the game and will be making adjustments as necessary in future patches.

 

I believe you’ll find that balance is in a much better place after these changes. But don’t take my word for it, play the game when you get the chance!


Edited by Aodz, 09 April 2014 - 12:19 PM.

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#2 Audrey

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:16 PM

Looking forward to seeing how this feels both in bracket two and at max level! 


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#3 Ayestes

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

I'm interested to see how it works out.  I'm just concerned a lot of the inlaid AMPs are worth less per AMP point then the T1 AMPs now.  I'll have to test it to be sure though.  


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#4 BinaryIllusion

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

I like the 1 to .5 change in stats.

 

Itemization looks decent now.

 

And im ok with hitting amps across the board for all classes. 

 

Im just wondering medic on medic duels already lasted a decade and a half... what about now with crappier TTK? seeing 2 medics duel is like watching 2 holy pallies try to kill each other.



#5 Halper

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:35 PM

Hey all,

 

I am seeing a lot of passionate discussion (mourning) about the AMP balance changes and I wanted to take a moment to clarify (commiserate) with you.

 

AMPs were, in general, severely overpowered and had to be adjusted (nerfed) to bring TTK to where we desired it to be (players were doing too much damage). Some classes had more of these overpowered AMPs than other classes and therefore required more… adjustments.

 

However, rest assured that this is not the final balance pass WildStar will ever receive and our on-going goal is to keep all classes viable in both PvE and PvP. We will be monitoring class performance throughout all aspects of the game and will be making adjustments as necessary in future patches.

 

I believe you’ll find that balance is in a much better place after these changes. But don’t take my word for it, play the game when you get the chance!

Can I just assume that the patch notes are incomplete as the changes to lets say Stalker doesn't seem nearly in line with the other classes nerfs.

 

Honestly, the balance outside of Engi(innate + elec) and Medics(QC+burst) wasn't that bad. But now it just just seems insane, I mean it really is hard to judge but how is a warrior who already couldn't 1v1 a stalker last patch going to have any chance if warriors lost 50% crit serv, 16% damage(kinetic fury), and 37.5% ap from recklessness... while stalkers lost 4% damage(battle mastery), 12% off their pvp def debuff, and a suitpower change.

its obvious that both classes damage wasn't nerfed inline with each other, then comes the next topic... Most heals seem to have gotten buffed and tweaked to improve their effectiveness while damage across the board got lowered. Number wise.... it just scary.



#6 Ayestes

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

While I have no idea what it will do to 50 play healers are going to be even more OP in the lower brackets.  Should be an interesting introductory experience for most people.  Not that I personally mind as I'll just have to make more healer friends.  The stalemates could get a bit old.  I know level 50 is a priority and should always be treated as such, but it will still be most people's first impressions.  Not sure what could even be done about it though.  

 

How the healing balance vs. DPS works out at 50 will be interesting.  I'll have to keep an eye on the arena 50 streams the next weekend. 


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#7 Isgu

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

Thanks for the post Aodz.

Very interested in seeing how class balance will work out after this patch, esp healing+tanking, not expecting dps to be anything less than a pain to balance :P


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#8 Aodz

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:00 PM

 
  1. Inlaid AMPs should continue to be "point for point" on par or better than Series AMPs. They should also have much more potential under ideal circumstances. That being said, I am sure we will need to continue to tweak numbers until they feel right.
  2. Given equal skill and equal gear, a Healer is intended to be able to heal through a single DPSer's damage output fairly easily. However, we here on the class team don't love 2v2 arena matches that take decades to complete so we do have some future plans to reduce Healer output in 2v2 arenas.
  3. As for Stalkers, based on our testing, their AMPs were not as out of line as some of the other classes. That being said, we are aware that portions of their kit are slightly over-tuned and we do have some changes "in the hopper" for a future patch.

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#9 Odinoki

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:25 PM

I'm a little nervous about how the lower levels got hit by this (some of that was painful enough already).

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see

 

I think everyone is just a little nervous at seeing their class bonked with the nerf bat (even though its across the board) and tension is a little high for some people.

Also, with AMPs being one of the major ways to customize your character, seeing their effectiveness hit kinda makes me feel a little like the impact of the choice you make is not as... impactful.

 

I'm sure you guys are going to be watching and listening very carefully and I am really glad to see the changes.



#10 Greyn

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:28 AM

We shouldn´t forget that Assault and Support Power will be increased.

 

 

Assault Power and Support Power now give more stat per budget point; 1 stat per point up from 0.5.



#11 TeoH

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:56 AM

We shouldn´t forget that Assault and Support Power will be increased.

 

Don't make me slap you.



#12 Isgu

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:05 AM

We shouldn´t forget that Assault and Support Power will be increased.

 

Yes, their stat per budget point is increased, and that only applies to a limited amount of items. In short it won't make a big difference.

It's been discussed to death in the following thread, check it out if interested:

https://forums.wilds...notes/?p=306653


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#13 Sebrent

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:13 AM

  1. Inlaid AMPs should continue to be "point for point" on par or better than Series AMPs. They should also have much more potential under ideal circumstances. That being said, I am sure we will need to continue to tweak numbers until they feel right.
  2. Given equal skill and equal gear, a Healer is intended to be able to heal through a single DPSer's damage output fairly easily. However, we here on the class team don't love 2v2 arena matches that take decades to complete so we do have some future plans to reduce Healer output in 2v2 arenas.
  3. As for Stalkers, based on our testing, their AMPs were not as out of line as some of the other classes. That being said, we are aware that portions of their kit are slightly over-tuned and we do have some changes "in the hopper" for a future patch.

Would you please elaborate on #3 here? I'm curious which Stalker abilities are currently considered "slightly over-tuned". Not [dis]agreeing, just trying to find out so I can plan ahead ;) I have spreadsheets, etc. to maintain after all :P


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#14 Spythe

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:19 AM

I personally like the AMP fixes(kinda silly calling them nerfs when it was clear a few were over the top), it opens up more options instead of having must have amps.

 

Would you please elaborate on #3 here? I'm curious which Stalker abilities are currently considered "slightly over-tuned". Not [dis]agreeing, just trying to find out so I can plan ahead ;) I have spreadsheets, etc. to maintain after all :P

 

Pre patch a good stalker was always close to the top in boss fights, with other classes getting hit a bit harder in AMPs than stalkers they will easily out DPS classes on single target fights.


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#15 Sebrent

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:30 AM

I personally like the AMP fixes(kinda silly calling them nerfs when it was clear a few were over the top), it opens up more options instead of having must have amps.

 

 

Pre patch a good stalker was always close to the top in boss fights, with other classes getting hit a bit harder in AMPs than stalkers they will easily out DPS classes on single target fights.

I completely agree with your thoughts on the AMP fixes.

 

As far as stalker DPS in single target fights, I have two thoughts on that that make me quite curious what the devs thoughts are:

(1) Stalkers have to choose between single-target, multi-target abilities ... helps compensate for being so good at single-target

(2) There are three primary skills that make up a majority of a Stalker's DPS in raids: T8 Shred, T8 Impale, and Punish (often T5) ... that's not many abilities ... which makes me even more curious if it is just those? only a particular one or two of those? others as well?


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#16 Spythe

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:46 AM

I completely agree with your thoughts on the AMP fixes.

 

As far as stalker DPS in single target fights, I have two thoughts on that that make me quite curious what the devs thoughts are:

(1) Stalkers have to choose between single-target, multi-target abilities ... helps compensate for being so good at single-target

(2) There are three primary skills that make up a majority of a Stalker's DPS in raids: T8 Shred, T8 Impale, and Punish (often T5) ... that's not many abilities ... which makes me even more curious if it is just those? only a particular one or two of those? others as well?

 

I don't know exactly what abilities the Stalkers are using but I know Impale is normally the number 1 damage move. If that gets adjusted that would be a massive nerf to Stalker DPS but it may put them in the range of everyone else. I know a CRB guy said they wanted DPS for all classes to be around 5k for launch. Before the last patch, I made a DPS thread and without lacerate weapon proc the majority of classes were sitting at 5k DPS expect Engineer and Spellslinger so it looks like the AMP system and new itemization, and some class changes took those numbers to the extreme. It will be nice being able to test GA 20man with the new patch because the damage output of my raid group made a lot of the boss fights a complete joke.

 

Speaking on the LAS set a lot of classes are exactly the same, you have 2 to 3 abilities doing 90% of your damage. I think Engineer may be one of the only classes that have multiply sources of damage but Electrocute is still number 1 by a massive margin.


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#17 Bbrooks

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:12 AM

Disclaimer: I do not play a stalker nor do I plan on it. Stealth is not really my cup of tea.

 

I agree that without some balancing stalker will be over the top in endgame PvE content. That being said, I tend to be of the thinking that stalkers as the game is set up currently should likely be atop the dps charts when played correctly. The small telegraph, positional requirement, and single target nature of the rotation is one thing, but on top of that they bring very little raid utility.

 

I feel I can safely say most people agree before this patch the top 3 dps classes were: Stalker, Warrior, Medic

 

I also feel comfortable saying that Warrior and medic brought the most to a raid in terms of buffs, debuffs, and utility.

 

Warriors have Powerlink (8.5% damage buff to 5 members adjusted for CDR amps) multiple armor debuffs, and one of the best raid CD's in defense grid.

Medics get Empowering aura, Empowering probes, Protection probes (probably less common) 

Stalker get t4 punish.

 

I agree with the consensus here that stalkers should be balanced once again (and I'm glad to see a red name admitting so) but I also think its very easy to look at a target dummy, see your damage is low and then decide the class is bad without looking at the larger picture. 


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#18 Grimjack

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:26 AM

Im not sure positional requirements are a valid argument when in a raid situation, boss cleave is enough to place the entire raid on the opposite side of the tank making that point moot.

 

Also, that utility from warriors and medics (powerlink, empowering probes, ect), nerfed, along with their damage.


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#19 Bbrooks

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:34 AM

Im not sure positional requirements are a valid argument when in a raid situation, boss cleave is enough to place the entire raid on the opposite side of the tank making that point moot.

 

Also, that utility from warriors and medics (powerlink, empowering probes, ect), nerfed, along with their damage.

 

I don't really see how that has any bearing on anything. Powerlink did not get nerfed, and is a 8.5% damage boost. Yeah EP and Empowering aura got nerfed, but both went from being absolutely amazing in group content, to slight less amazing but still really really good. EP went from being a 12% damage boost to being 6% damage boost. Still brings a lot of group damage with it. This is assuming people dont line up bursts/cds to fit into the uptime windows. 

 

Just because Medic utility got nerfed, doesn't mean it shouldn't be factored into balance. Its still very good, and still will be a deciding factor in raid comps. 


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#20 Byonaa

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:42 AM

Bbrooks makes a good point, assuming 100% equal DPS, why bring a Stalker over say, a Warrior? two things bother me about this topic:

 

1- Lack of utility... See, if i was playing a Warrior i would not want to have inferior DPS because i bring Powerlink and Defensive Grid, i can totally relate to them... and because of that i will not suggest Stalker should have higher DPS, i am a believer of equal and balanced DPS, however that means Stalker needs to be given some of that Powerlink/Empowering Aura love, give Stalkers something useful to the group otherwise why would i bring a Stalker over a Warrior if DPS was equal?

 

2- Warrior ST rotation IS their AoE rotation... As a Stalker, i find myself changing from ST spec to AoE spec using ActionSet Profiles addon quite often between trash pulls, and if i made a mistake and used AoE spec and tank pulls 1 mob, or vice versa, well, i'm stuck with my inferior DPS.

 

The thing is, that is how it should be, Neutralize does less ST DPS than Impale, so one has to make a choice... whereas Warrior = Powerstrike = Win in any situation.


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