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Engineer Updates / Future


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#1 Ignore

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:44 AM

Noticed on a lot of other sub threads, there is a post by the class lead regarding changes, issues, concerns, and how things are going to be improved upon.

 

This is lacking in the Engineers.

 

Could we get the class lead to speak and shed some insight?

 

 

Tech R had a similar post, but his approach was extremely abrasive and offensive, so it was subsequently locked.  Additionally, the individual who closed the post, linked to a non-existent thread.

 

 

Could we get some insight.  I am curious the future for the Engineer, as I have refound my enjoyment of the class (since the stupid dash dash was lessened).  Im hearing mixed reviews from PTR.

 

 


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#2 Artifa

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:22 PM

Meerkat has responded in the DPS Engineer changes thread and I believe in one of the PTR engineer threads regarding incoming changes.  There are tank changes and dps changes coming in the next PTR build.

 

Oops lol.  Didn't see his post before i posted this



#3 Swifterz

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 01:39 PM

I think what he is asking is for a more in depth discussion that some of the other class leads are having, not just changes on the ptr with small blurb on why they changed it. If you look back in the dev tracker the class leads have been extremely engaging with those classes. They only thing I can think of why we more than likely won't see as much engagement is due to Meerkats comment they they feel that engineers are just about right where they want them. Hopefully this means they will be bring class below us (not many) to our level and bring those classes are leaps and bounds above us down to our level. 

 

The one thing that I really want to hear is why to do max dps with EA/BC/MS builds we have nearly no utility that we can bring to raid without gimping our dps. Need to run BS debuff, dps loss, need to bring more then 1 IA, dps loss, need to run 3 interrupts, DPS loss. The only 2 viable utility things we bring to a raid are VI crit buff, and BS tech debuff. If we take BS debuff, we gimp our dps (not by much, but enough to make ya think hrmm). Exploit weakness is a great amp, but its buried so far into the hybrid A/S that it again severely gimps your DPS because you lose critical amps from the assault tree.



#4 Artifa

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:15 PM

More communication and discussion, can't argue there.

 

As far as EA/MS specs versus utility, It seems like that is the position they want all classes to be in, if I understand correctly.

 

1. You have a theoretical max dps spec ignoring utility and do your maximum damage.

2. You have a bunch of AMP/Ability choice changes that you can make that are small personal DPS losses (in some cases, or DPS gains depending on the fight) but that allow you to fine tune your skill-set on a per fight basis.  IE Add Bio Shell, drop D-Bot, T4 Zap, OV, SI, T4 RM, switching out assault tree AMPs, etc

 

It would be nice for utility specs to do the same damage as the "max DPS" specs, but then these would just become the max dps specs and leave EA/TA in the trash like they used to be.



#5 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:25 PM

It's because we don't necessarily want a build that can be max DPS and full-on utility all within one LAS. We have the LAS system for a reason and that is to create situations of hard choices. In the last few cycles, we've been working on the classes slowly so they have to make hard choices based on the encounter and group needs. That is our goal.

 

As for AMPs, it does come down to an issue of personal loss vs raid/group gains. While we're going to try and make the trip to get said AMPs feel good, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be the highest personal gains.


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#6 MoePork

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:37 PM

I think the Gripe I have about those raid beneficial AMPs for engis is that they are in terrible spots and seem to offer a really bad gain for them (see exploit weakness, you pmuch HAVE to use pulse blast), where as Medics have two gigantic raid damage increases that have very little cost of personal damage or playstyle (see Entrapment, and Surgical, assuming things aren't bugged).



#7 Psyknis

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:37 PM

It's because we don't necessarily want a build that can be max DPS and full-on utility all within one LAS. We have the LAS system for a reason and that is to create situations of hard choices. In the last few cycles, we've been working on the classes slowly so they have to make hard choices based on the encounter and group needs. That is our goal.

 

As for AMPs, it does come down to an issue of personal loss vs raid/group gains. While we're going to try and make the trip to get said AMPs feel good, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be the highest personal gains.

 

Okay, fair enough.

 

Then what say you about tanks? The upcoming changes just add another builder to our rotation (I currently tank with 4 - VR, RD, Shock Pulse, Feedback T4) and make it clunky. Nothing has been changed to make using PE less desirable, even a little bit. The changes only bring about frustration that we have to replace a builder (Feedback T4 is being destroyed) with another builder.  


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#8 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:58 PM

I think the Gripe I have about those raid beneficial AMPs for engis is that they are in terrible spots and seem to offer a really bad gain for them (see exploit weakness, you pmuch HAVE to use pulse blast), where as Medics have two gigantic raid damage increases that have very little cost of personal damage or playstyle (see Entrapment, and Surgical, assuming things aren't bugged).

 

I'm not a fan of some of the gigantic raid buff AMPs. Overall, we're going to go through anything considered a raid buff/debuff and re-balance them. It's just not in 1.2.0, which is on PTR now.


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#9 Kurona

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:05 PM

It's because we don't necessarily want a build that can be max DPS and full-on utility all within one LAS. We have the LAS system for a reason and that is to create situations of hard choices. In the last few cycles, we've been working on the classes slowly so they have to make hard choices based on the encounter and group needs. That is our goal.

 

As for AMPs, it does come down to an issue of personal loss vs raid/group gains. While we're going to try and make the trip to get said AMPs feel good, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be the highest personal gains.

 

I'd love for some of this to be applied for espers. 6-7 button rotations right now, 7-8 for 1.2.0.


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#10 guymn999

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:27 PM

I'm not a fan of some of the gigantic raid buff AMPs. Overall, we're going to go through anything considered a raid buff/debuff and re-balance them. It's just not in 1.2.0, which is on PTR now.

does this go for all classes or just engis?



#11 Ignore

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:15 PM

I think what he is asking is for a more in depth discussion that some of the other class leads are having, not just changes on the ptr with small blurb on why they changed it. If you look back in the dev tracker the class leads have been extremely engaging with those classes. They only thing I can think of why we more than likely won't see as much engagement is due to Meerkats comment they they feel that engineers are just about right where they want them. Hopefully this means they will be bring class below us (not many) to our level and bring those classes are leaps and bounds above us down to our level. 

 

 

This is exactly it.  Every other class has pages and pages of individuals who have brought issues up, and have had feedback and responses from the leads.

 

Engies are extremely lacking in that regard.  Even honest and open discussions would be beneficial; we are perceived as the dying breed, and often brought just to provide others crit buff.

 

Meerkat, I wanted to raise two issues, and wanted feedback:

 

Exploit Weakness:

 

Are there any plans to re-evaluate this useless AMP?  First off, mechanically, it doesn't even work right.  It should apply with a 'Basic Attack' - what constitutes a basic attack?  Currently, this is classified as pulse blast.  Additionally, it will only refresh itself after the previous debuff has fallen off?

 

Will this AMP be redesigned completely, or be allowed to stack with other armor debuffs?

 

Pulse Blast:

Other classes are based on having their main ability being used while others are on cooldown.  Spellslingers through our quick draw while waiting for their CDs; Espers have TK Strike, etc etc.

 

This ability seems pretty useless all around.  Will this change anytime in the future, or is it always destined to be a tool used for the pre 20s and then never again?


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#12 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:54 PM

does this go for all classes or just engis?

 

It's something we'll look at for all classes, not just Engineers.


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#13 Ihas

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:34 PM

 

 

I was hoping for a Energy Auger cast time reduction though  :(

^^ This, I see myself doing excellent on meters up until my second cast on EA I drop down significantly. 

 

The GCD with BS increase dmg to BC mixed with VR smoother gains I think that is great, Ill be all over PTR to see how these changes workout.

And same old same old things with bots dying to everything :D 

 

I think PB needs to stay where it is, having to stop to cast something like that gets rid of the fluid motions that I love about Engis, and was even better before D3. 

 

I think for the most part the Engineer Community is tired of getting these very vague answers about what you like, dont like, what you all are considering, or possibly changing. This is the most I've ever seen you post back to us Meerkat which is amazing, and I greatly appreciate it man. But like a detailed post about what EXACTLY you are going to change what EXACTLY your intent is. Tittle it "Engineer changes that MIGHT POSSIBLY happen" for all care so you dont give people false hope. But to me just saying oh we are planning somethings.. isn't enough and last time that happened (Post Drop 3, Pre two PTR changes ago) we got 1 SINGLE post about how you were not happy with how Engineer DPS was and planned to change and then PTR changes happened and the entire Engineer community got pissed. 


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#14 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:37 PM

This is exactly it.  Every other class has pages and pages of individuals who have brought issues up, and have had feedback and responses from the leads.

 

Engies are extremely lacking in that regard.  Even honest and open discussions would be beneficial; we are perceived as the dying breed, and often brought just to provide others crit buff.

 

Meerkat, I wanted to raise two issues, and wanted feedback:

 

Exploit Weakness:

 

Are there any plans to re-evaluate this useless AMP?  First off, mechanically, it doesn't even work right.  It should apply with a 'Basic Attack' - what constitutes a basic attack?  Currently, this is classified as pulse blast.  Additionally, it will only refresh itself after the previous debuff has fallen off?

 

Will this AMP be redesigned completely, or be allowed to stack with other armor debuffs?

 

Pulse Blast:

Other classes are based on having their main ability being used while others are on cooldown.  Spellslingers through our quick draw while waiting for their CDs; Espers have TK Strike, etc etc.

 

This ability seems pretty useless all around.  Will this change anytime in the future, or is it always destined to be a tool used for the pre 20s and then never again?

 

Exploit Weakness has already changed on PTR. Critical hits with a Builder ability will apply a 10% physical resistance debuff for 5s.

 

I agree Pulse Blast isn't optimal in most situations. In a LAS system, everything is going to come down to numbers because you're attempting to maximize 8 ability slots. Which means it will most likely need to displace either energy auger or bio shell, both of which already have solid synergy with current spenders. In the future, maybe it's something we'll tackle; right now we like the usage of the other builders and that Engineers do something different than other classes.


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#15 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:49 PM

I've always tried to convey that Engineer DPS is close to where it needs to be. I've also always tried to make it clear in the same thought that some classes, mainly Warrior PvE DPS is over-performing. I don't remember posting to the contrary, but I do apologize if anything came off that way.


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#16 MoePork

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:43 PM

 But like a detailed post about what EXACTLY you are going to change what EXACTLY your intent is.

 

 

This is what I like best, as well as some of the thought process on what they are thinking.

 

I still don't agree with PB staying where it should be.  Right now it is something we use until level 25 and never look back on it again.  At least make it to a point where it is viable raid setting.

If you could still jump and shoot with it, I would have been perfectly fine with it being mainly a pvp builder, but that is not the case anymore.

 

 

Also... can we get dasher specials on our class dps boots plz?  lol



#17 Artifa

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:46 PM

The GCD reduction on Bio Shell should make BS/Elec and BS/BC a bit stronger, and the BC damage boost will get people switching again between Elec/BC based on a cleave/single target scenario.

 

@Exploit Weakness proc by critical hits with a builder:  Debuffs shouldn't have to rely on RNG to apply (crit to proc).  You can't depend on having that debuff when you need it.  A 5 second debuff proccing off an ability with a 5-7 second CD could theoretically give decent uptime but not if it relies on your crit chance.

 

I don't think this makes it more appealing to take.  Forceful and Cruisin work with low uptime and RNG application because they are self only, massive dps gains.  You can't expect a raid team to rely on a weak-ish, RNG application raid debuff.

 

At most your uptime will be = to your crit chance on your builder, and everyone has that info available to them on logs.



#18 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 08:55 AM

This is what I like best, as well as some of the thought process on what they are thinking.

 

I still don't agree with PB staying where it should be.  Right now it is something we use until level 25 and never look back on it again.  At least make it to a point where it is viable raid setting.

If you could still jump and shoot with it, I would have been perfectly fine with it being mainly a pvp builder, but that is not the case anymore.

 

 

Also... can we get dasher specials on our class dps boots plz?  lol

 

 

Pulse Blast - Basic Builder

Target Acquisition - arguably a part of the highest ST build possible for the Engineer, the amount of micro-management required make this something most will never take.

Energy Auger - Synergy with Mortar Strike so works in multiple builds

Bio Shell - synergy with Bolt Caster and provides a good raid debuff

 

Anything with a cast time is usually described as clunky. Which is why most people want a reduction in Energy Auger cast time already, they want that responsive Bio Shell T4 feel. So Pulse Blast would have to do a few things to make it worthwhile, we'd need to make it feel less clunky and find a niche for it like EA/BS so it's not the "always" thing. All of this while keeping it appropriate for an entry level skill.

 

Beyond that, we like the fact Engineers don't have to rely on a "spammer" ability and it's not a part of a max DPS raid/dungeon rotation. 

 

 

 

TT and I talk about Dasher all the time. We both think it's not maintainable the way we currently give it out. So we're trying to come up with a consensus of alternate ways to gain Dasher without putting it on every Engineer boot in the game.


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#19 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 09:08 AM

The GCD reduction on Bio Shell should make BS/Elec and BS/BC a bit stronger, and the BC damage boost will get people switching again between Elec/BC based on a cleave/single target scenario.

 

@Exploit Weakness proc by critical hits with a builder:  Debuffs shouldn't have to rely on RNG to apply (crit to proc).  You can't depend on having that debuff when you need it.  A 5 second debuff proccing off an ability with a 5-7 second CD could theoretically give decent uptime but not if it relies on your crit chance.

 

I don't think this makes it more appealing to take.  Forceful and Cruisin work with low uptime and RNG application because they are self only, massive dps gains.  You can't expect a raid team to rely on a weak-ish, RNG application raid debuff.

 

At most your uptime will be = to your crit chance on your builder, and everyone has that info available to them on logs.

 

 

Exploit Weakness is meant to be RNG, if it's predictable it doesn't become a thing used when needed. It makes it something you do all the time to maximize output. 

 

Beyond that, you could keep a 100% up time if Pulse Blast were included in your build. Builder Crit Rates in raids for Engineers can range from around 45% to 75%(most tend to be in the 55-60% range). That is something we had to take into consideration. Which then comes down to is personal dps loss acceptable for the raid to gain X% damage?

 

Now it may not be worthwhile to the raid and at that point maybe it needs to change entirely.


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#20 Ryoka

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 09:49 AM

Okay, fair enough.

Then what say you about tanks? The upcoming changes just add another builder to our rotation (I currently tank with 4 - VR, RD, Shock Pulse, Feedback T4) and make it clunky. Nothing has been changed to make using PE less desirable, even a little bit. The changes only bring about frustration that we have to replace a builder (Feedback T4 is being destroyed) with another builder.


The problem is that other builders are currently very undesirable. Adjustments to Disruptive Module go part way to fix lack of threat generation from it. For being a skill you have to invest amp points to get it should be much more desirable. Mainly the issue at hand is that there are typically only narrow Windows when you can cast it and not either drop out of the zone or miss hitting party members with the shield heal. I would think with the new changes in volatility rising it might be looked at to adjust the cast time to facilitate use. I would like to see a 1.5 second cast time instead of 2.5. This helps the issue of hitting it in the zone and being able to hit it while passing near people to give them a shield heal.