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#21 Cercie

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:24 AM

Psy - if you are tanking the raid and Code Red is not doing it for you...I really have no idea what to say. Tell your 2 highest DPS to stack on/near you, and watch the threat roll in. If that doesn't work...um...yea...I got nothing.


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#22 Psyknis

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:31 AM

Psy - if you are tanking the raid and Code Red is not doing it for you...I really have no idea what to say. Tell your 2 highest DPS to stack on/near you, and watch the threat roll in. If that doesn't work...um...yea...I got nothing.

 

Code Red is too much of a hassle to try and deal with in such a manner. I use it when I can, but most of the time I don't use it. All 3 of our medics are capable of pulling in 9k+, they can pass me no matter what I do. Threat isn't a huge issue for me, it's more of a nuisance. I was just explicating how Code Red isn't a god button people think it is.

 

Because it isn't an intimidate, it doesn't move you any higher on the threat list. It just makes NPCs attack you for a second. Then, if you haven't reach 110% threat of the highest person, it goes back to attack them anyway.


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#23 Ondesvin

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:35 AM

Code Red is too much of a hassle to try and deal with in such a manner. I use it when I can, but most of the time I don't use it. All 3 of our medics are capable of pulling in 9k+, they can pass me no matter what I do. Threat isn't a huge issue for me, it's more of a nuisance. I was just explicating how Code Red isn't a god button people think it is.

 

Because it isn't an intimidate, it doesn't move you any higher on the threat list. It just makes NPCs attack you for a second. Then, if you haven't reach 110% threat of the highest person, it goes back to attack them anyway.

 

 

even if it hit another tank its still massive more threat, saying Code red dont work for you is just BS... the reason Engi tanks are more or less main tanks are and have been, are for There massive burst Threat... and code red is still a massive burst threat ability, stalkers cant keep up and neither can warrior on pulls, i have to say just remove Code red from Engi and then nerf Engi tank main ability damage down to warrior main Ability damage and watch Engi tanks, cry and whine and what not and then lets them wait for a fix for 5 month and you are allmost in the same boat warriors are in, and warrior tanks are still the worse tank to bring to a raid if you want an optimal raid setup ... :o_O



#24 Psyknis

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:40 AM

even if it hit another tank its still massive more threat, saying it dont work for it is just BS... the reason Engi tanks are more or less main tanks are and have been for There massive burst Threat... and code red is still a massive burst threat ability, stalkers cant keep up and neither can warrior on pulls, i have to say just remove Code red from Engi and then nerf Engi tank main ability damage down to warrior main Ability damage and watch Engi tanks, cry and whine and what not and then lets them wait for a fix for 5 month and you are allmost in the same boat warriors are in, and warrior tanks are still the worse tank to bring to a raid if you want an optimal raid setup ... :o_O

 

Your solutions are just whining. I am currently designated OT, being MT for fights when necessary and when our MT is sitting out for others. He is a warrior! *audible gasp*

 

I never said CR doesn't work, nowhere did I say that. It just doesn't work the way you think it does. 


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#25 Ondesvin

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:45 PM

Your solutions are just whining. I am currently designated OT, being MT for fights when necessary and when our MT is sitting out for others. He is a warrior! *audible gasp*

 

I never said CR doesn't work, nowhere did I say that. It just doesn't work the way you think it does. 

 

if i say that Code Red is a Massive threat burst tool on Pulls and MOO's am i then wrong in my assumption?



#26 Psyknis

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:52 PM

if i say that Code Red is a Massive threat burst tool on Pulls and MOO's am i then wrong in my assumption?

 

If it hits 2 of your strongest DPS on the opening it will generate you ~27000 threat over 6 seconds (assuming your DPS is reaching 9k, highly unlikely). It's decent, but that is less than RM and 6 seconds isn't snap.


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#27 Ondesvin

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 08:13 AM

If it hits 2 of your strongest DPS on the opening it will generate you ~27000 threat over 6 seconds (assuming your DPS is reaching 9k, highly unlikely). It's decent, but that is less than RM and 6 seconds isn't snap.

 

thats funny for warrior can break 20k DPS with innate, and one reason they pull so much threat off the bat, and same goes for stalker when they unload.

 

and another think my guild got 3 stalkers alone that break 9k dps and we are getting warriors now that pull allmost the same

insane numbers also.  a little hint just stand next to two warrior and pop Code red and watch your Threat flyve ahead of the deeps!



#28 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 11:46 AM

Hey All,

 

A little update on threat generation and you.

 

We will be moving forward with an update to all tank stance threat generation bonuses. The bonus will move up to 275%, up from the previous 200%. 

 

Goals of this change

  • Easier to keep and maintain threat
  • Grant the tank some comfort room on threat to allow for builds that have additional utility rather than only max threat.

 

It is currently being tested internally and we're hoping to have it up in the near future.


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#29 guymn999

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 12:34 PM

Hey All,

 

A little update on threat generation and you.

 

We will be moving forward with an update to all tank stance threat generation bonuses. The bonus will move up to 275%, up from the previous 200%. 

 

Goals of this change

  • Easier to keep and maintain threat
  • Grant the tank some comfort room on threat to allow for builds that have additional utility rather than only max threat.

 

It is currently being tested internally and we're hoping to have it up in the near future.

when you say moving forwoard, do you mean tonight's hotfix?



#30 Ondesvin

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 02:03 PM

Hey All,

 

A little update on threat generation and you.

 

We will be moving forward with an update to all tank stance threat generation bonuses. The bonus will move up to 275%, up from the previous 200%. 

 

Goals of this change

  • Easier to keep and maintain threat
  • Grant the tank some comfort room on threat to allow for builds that have additional utility rather than only max threat.

 

It is currently being tested internally and we're hoping to have it up in the near future.

 

how will that help with our burst threat? and how will this even balance our TPS and burst Threat among the classes? Engi will gain massive benefit from this and Warriors are now also stalkers are even more behind. if you want to help us out nerf Engi massive threat down to Stalker and Warrior lvl and then start to give us some threat buffs...

 

 

this is just not helping us at all!



#31 Curo_

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 05:51 PM

Hey All,

 

A little update on threat generation and you.

 

We will be moving forward with an update to all tank stance threat generation bonuses. The bonus will move up to 275%, up from the previous 200%. 

 

Goals of this change

  • Easier to keep and maintain threat
  • Grant the tank some comfort room on threat to allow for builds that have additional utility rather than only max threat.

 

It is currently being tested internally and we're hoping to have it up in the near future.

 

Have you considered rather than simply increasing our threat modifier, increasing our damage? I realize people have various philosophical ideas on the subject of tank DPS, but personally I tend to think that tanks should be worth about 50% of your average DPS in any given situation. Obviously there are implications to PvP, but that's a separate issue.

 

Edit: Just as an example - http://www.wildstarl...ype=damage-done

 

Fraya and I both did about 25% of our highest DPS' damage. This was actually a bad kill, since we were missing some buffs and a debuff, so they would've been higher. Also note that a medic healer almost matched us in damage just by healing us and dropping field probes. I feel like that's a little bit incorrect.



#32 Schmoopsy

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 06:41 PM

Have you considered rather than simply increasing our threat modifier, increasing our damage? I realize people have various philosophical ideas on the subject of tank DPS, but personally I tend to think that tanks should be worth about 50% of your average DPS in any given situation. Obviously there are implications to PvP, but that's a separate issue.

 

Edit: Just as an example - http://www.wildstarl...ype=damage-done

 

Fraya and I both did about 25% of our highest DPS' damage. This was actually a bad kill, since we were missing some buffs and a debuff, so they would've been higher. Also note that a medic healer almost matched us in damage just by healing us and dropping field probes. I feel like that's a little bit incorrect.

 

 

On top of the medic matching tank dps I was low man in terms of DPS but I was the one with the most TPS, of course I'm an engineer and blah blah blah op threat blah blah blah but somethings wrong here if the least geared of the 3 tanks has the most TPS, they constantly complain where I don't have an issue, I have the opposite problem I generate all the threat but I take more damage because of a lack of defensive amps.

 


#33 I Klade I

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 06:41 PM

THANK YOU JESUS.


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#34 FlyingK

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 09:45 PM



 

 

On top of the medic matching tank dps I was low man in terms of DPS but I was the one with the most TPS, of course I'm an engineer and blah blah blah op threat blah blah blah but somethings wrong here if the least geared of the 3 tanks has the most TPS, they constantly complain where I don't have an issue, I have the opposite problem I generate all the threat but I take more damage because of a lack of defensive amps.


 

 

 

A lot of that is just due to the different designs behind the classes. In exchange for minimal passive mitigation, Engineers appear to have been intended to have an easier time in building up a buffer in threat so that they could start spamming off active mitigation skills which are quite a bit more robust compared to their peers.

 

Once the increase to threat is made; you won't be forced into tiering up Code Red, be able to spend more of your GCDs on 100% uptime of Unsteady Miasma, be able to spend the cast time on Dispruptive Module, etc. Basically being able to mitigate that extra damage you take because you'll be able to focus your skills around mitigation as designed.



#35 Ondesvin

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 01:15 AM

Have you considered rather than simply increasing our threat modifier, increasing our damage? I realize people have various philosophical ideas on the subject of tank DPS, but personally I tend to think that tanks should be worth about 50% of your average DPS in any given situation. Obviously there are implications to PvP, but that's a separate issue.

 

Edit: Just as an example - http://www.wildstarl...ype=damage-done

 

Fraya and I both did about 25% of our highest DPS' damage. This was actually a bad kill, since we were missing some buffs and a debuff, so they would've been higher. Also note that a medic healer almost matched us in damage just by healing us and dropping field probes. I feel like that's a little bit incorrect.

 

ok Curo: first i couldt understand how you had so high dps, but then i looked at your skills used in that log. Breaching Strike and Radiate, - do you spec for into Kinetic Fury and Fury for 19% more damage??? also useing Breaching Stike is a nice touch, but you have 5 damage abilities on your bar, and do you run Tier 8 Jolt and tier 8 Polarity Field? plz post your build would love to see and i would also love to see your stats, if you could post a pic :)

 

 

anyway i still think warrior are on the low end of the damage meter our Stalker and Engi tank are higher then me in damage, well i know our Stalker tank are. but i remember that the Engi Partical Ejector pre drop 3 and before warrior tanks got that small threat boost just after drop 2 did around 120% more TPS then our Menacing Strike, and not much have change in that department...

 

but yea Curo_ you are right giving us more damage would help on our threat but look at our skills and give them a boost in damage instead of a overall damage gain and even out all 3 classes in the threat department (Burst and sustained) also you should consider changing our defensive stance from -20% damage to -50% assult Power that should fix the problem in PvP and the stupid Assult tanking theory :)-



#36 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 08:47 AM

In the future, I want to move away from the negative damage penalty and make it an assault power penalty. We did not do it now because it's a much larger change overall. Tanks are balanced around dealing X% less damage in regards to their ability to survive vs output in general pve and pvp. 


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#37 Psyknis

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 10:02 AM

In the future, I want to move away from the negative damage penalty and make it an assault power penalty. We did not do it now because it's a much larger change overall. Tanks are balanced around dealing X% less damage in regards to their ability to survive vs output in general pve and pvp. 

 

Does this mean you agree with Curo that tanks should do more damage overall?


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#38 CRB_Meerkat

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 10:35 AM

I mean that as long as we're reducing damage by 20%, it's reducing threat generation by ~20%. Which means, we'll eventually be having this discussion again next gear tier if something doesn't change.


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#39 Psyknis

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 10:56 AM

I mean that as long as we're reducing damage by 20%, it's reducing threat generation by ~20%. Which means, we'll eventually be having this discussion again next gear tier if something doesn't change.

 

Fair point.


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#40 Ryoka

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 07:55 AM

  • Grant the tank some comfort room on threat to allow for builds that have additional utility rather than only max threat.

 

What about those that already built for something other than max threat?  I would rather have seen carbine adjust individual class issues. Engineers lag behind warriors and stalkers in terms of mitigation so much it hurts. The only thing that has been keeping us relevant was our ability to generate adequate threat.

 

Log from post patch GA: http://www.wildstarl...&boss=2&wipes=1

 

I build for straight armor and mitigation still manage to take more average damage per attack plus get hit more often.  I already managed to keep near 100% uptime on the only active mitigation spell we have Unstable Miasma.  Unlike warriors or stalkers the only defensive cooldowns are on 1 minute cooldowns (innate and personal defense unit).  If you look at logs from guilds that are farther along than ours (2/6 GA) I have seen warrior and stalker mitigation take even less per hit while managing better deflect.

 

Log from pre patch GA: http://www.wildstarl...&boss=2&wipes=1

 

Before Feedback T8 was fixed I took a total of 10% less per hit on average in the same encounter. With an 8 second cooldown and only active to be cast when a deflect happens I think that average damage reduction it gave is within reason with it's uptime constraints.