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Okay Carbine: no more of MY money until you start speaking about MY issues

gear progression solo raider non-raider drop 3 itemization

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#1 Sray

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 08:56 AM

Okay, I choose a deliberately provocative title in order to get some attention on to this thread because this is something that we haven't seen much real talk about: endgame gear progression post Drop 3. Specifically for me, solo/non-raiding gear progression, but this really is an issue that affects everyone.

 

 

My questions are this:

 

 

1. What does the general road map for gear progression look like? Will there be pre-raid gear tiers that the raiders will need before moving onto raids?

 

2. Will loot drops still be the primary form of gear progression, or will players be able to upgrade via vendors?

 

3. Will there still be soloist/non-raider gear progression that does not hit a dead end with the gear that is intended as starting raid gear?

 

4. If the commitment to soloist/non-raider gear progression is still there, how exactly is that supposed to work? Will raid gear have unique stats not found on non-raid gear (ie. like the difference between PvP gear and PvE gear)? If there is not a PvE/PvP-like stat division between raid gear and non-raid gear, how is the progression supposed to look/feel any different from the "funnel everyone into raiding" progression that has become the norm?

 

5. Will gear progression be enforced (ie. you must complete the Tier 1 set before being able to purchase/equip the Tier 2 set; alternately, must have defeated Boss X before being able to purchase/equip this piece), or will it be unrestricted beyond character level (ie. only requirement is to be level 50)?

 

6. Where exactly does crafted gear fit into this scheme? Is it going to primarily be for introductory level 50 gear; or will crafters at some point get the ability to craft more customizable (stat-wise) near-raid level gear?

 

 

This list probably doesn't include every single question that the players have, but I think that it's a good starting point for questions that the Devs haven't been as forthcoming with as I would like, particularly in the solo/non-raider area where there's been a lot of talk about the new content we're going to be getting, but virtually no talk about the meaningful post-50 progression that was frequently discussed prior to launch.



#2 The Caretaker

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:36 AM

If you've been paying attention they are addressing a majority of your issues. I'm not going to provide sources as I have to leave really soon but I'm sure someone will oblige. 


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#3 Typrop

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:51 AM

  1. yes
  2. yes and no...loot eventually will be from crafting, drops, and vendors in their respective fashion/manner
  3. yes...kinda...
  4. look up defile stuff some of it is there...
  5. this already exists for raid drops via the elder gem vendor where you must kill/clear content X
  6. Use search function

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#4 Sray

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:33 AM

Caretaker and Teprop, thanks for the responses, but the truth is they haven't really spelled it out in terms of a simple roadmap: it's all been in pieces here and there still lacking a lot of the conective tissue.

 

Furthermore, when the devs have been asked about gear progression in terms of the soloist/non-raider, you get some mumbling about itemization... strikethrough was something something... but no solid answers. Before launch they talked about a having a distinct gear progression path for non-raiders, but once the game was released, once again we saw the same thing as every we see in every other MMO "ignore the fact that 60-65% of MMO players don't do large group content and funnel all progression into raiding". I don't see how they can create a parallel progression path without the same type of unique stat division that exists between PvE and PvP gear, but if they think it's possible I think it's time to start explaining to us how that's going to work.

 

This is something that shouldn't be buried in the middle of a 55 page itemization discussion in the crafting forum, this is the type of thing that needs to be talked about in the general discussion forums and on the Nexus Report. Every week they get pelted with these questions in regards to soloists during the Nexus Report and they keep ignoring them. It's great to hear what they have in store for housing and music, but this is on the minds of a huge number of players and it's time they told the soloers and non-raiders in plain and simple terms what they can expect their progression to look like post Drop 3, and General Discussion or the Nexus Report is the place those players are most likely to actually look for it.



#5 Dalane

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:15 PM

They can't spell everything out for you.  At some point you have to just play the game and look for answers yourself.  Otherwise, what would be the point of playing?


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#6 Sray

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:11 PM

They can't spell everything out for you.  At some point you have to just play the game and look for answers yourself.  Otherwise, what would be the point of playing?

You're right: clearly I'm being entirely unreasonable. After all, it's not like concerns of PvPers and raiders have been directly addressed with their solutions spelled out in no uncertain terms in high profile posts and on the Nexus Report. And /sarcasm off.

 

From Carbine's reported stats, 60-65% of MMO players do no engage in large group content (meaning raiding and most high end PvP). That means these questions concern two thirds of their current and/or perspective customers: that is a clear majority of the players. If they're going to spend time addressing the questions of PvPers, raiders and housing aficionados in high profile information outlets, then it's not unreasonable to ask them to do the same of the questions of soloists, and they have dodged giving straight answers about this since announcing the delay of Drop 3.



#7 Old Man Tek

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:17 PM

You're right: I'm being entirely unreasonable. After all, it's not like concerns of PvPers and raiders have been directly addressed with their solutions spelled out in no uncertain terms in high profile posts and on the Nexus Report.


Carbine's not in the business of making single player games. Also, as others have pointed out, most of your concerns have been directly addressed, so I doubt you'd take the time to read their response even if they decided to give you one.

#8 Primm

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:32 PM

Let me answer you based on what I've looked up and looked into. The most important piece of information I can lead you to is the Nexus Report from the last week in August where they are talking to Evan Graziano.  It takes a bit to sit through but there are some very nice snippets within it that do address or at least touch upon many of your questions.

 

Link is here:  https://www.youtube....-DbivZnnMtjPUGw

 

Gear Progression Road Map:   From that Nexus Report, Evan states that the goal for gear progression will be:  veteran adventures < veteran dungeons </= crafted gear < 10 man raids < 20 man raids.  He did express some concerns that a lot of the crafted gear was a little too good.  He also addressed that before this coming overhaul, some Best-in-Slot items were found in some rather unlikely places.

 

Will Loot Drops be the Primary form of Gear Progression:  Yes with a 'but'.  Again, Evan touches on this.  At present, it can be very frustrating to try and gear up from random drops.  He's working hard with his team to streamline how loot drops.  They're looking into a token system similar to World of Warcraft's tier token drops to try and facilitate making ubiquitous, valuable loot when a boss is killed.  In addition, like now, there will be supplementary drops that can be purchased through vendors but I didn't hear him reference anything about being able to eventually buy entire equipment sets that way.

 

Soloist Gear:  From what Evan described, short of PUGing, Soloists will be restricted to craftable gear and quest drop gear.  From pickup groups, obviously adventure gear becomes available and this doesn't include PVP gear which has it's own progression.

 

On the Gear Funnel:  If you want better gear, you will have to PVP/Raid.  I didn't hear them speak on this Nexus Report about if questing rewards will upscale with newer content (for example, the Defile's quest rewards vs Blighthaven's quest rewards).

 

Will Gear Tiers be Enforced:  No, that's silly.  How is someone who joins Wildstar in January of 2015 supposed to hope to gear up to current content to play with their friends when most of the community is more focussed on playing newer content rather than constantly cycling back to older content?  This was the death knell of high tier raiding in World of Warcraft during the Burning Crusade expansion.

 

Crafted Gear:  See above.  Crafted gear is supposed to fit around veteran dungeon level if I understood Evan correctly.


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#9 Dalane

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:37 PM

You're right: clearly I'm being entirely unreasonable. After all, it's not like concerns of PvPers and raiders have been directly addressed with their solutions spelled out in no uncertain terms in high profile posts and on the Nexus Report. And /sarcasm off.

 

From Carbine's reported stats, 60-65% of MMO players do no engage in large group content (meaning raiding and most high end PvP). That means these questions concern two thirds of their current and/or perspective customers: that is a clear majority of the players. If they're going to spend time addressing the questions of PvPers, raiders and housing aficionados in high profile information outlets, then it's not unreasonable to ask them to do the same of the questions of soloists, and they have dodged giving straight answers about this since announcing the delay of Drop 3.

 

I must not have realized that solo players were not able to access these answers in similar ways that raiders/pvpers do.  Do none of the 60-65% know these answers?  They are pretty basic questions.



#10 J-Tal

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:43 PM

1. What does the general road map for gear progression look like? Will there be pre-raid gear tiers that the raiders will need before moving onto raids?

 

A rough outline would be solo-questing, group-questing, Veteran Shiphands, Veteran Adventures, Veteran Dungeons, 20-man Raiding, 40-man Raiding. Vendor-purchased gear from Reputations, Renown, and other currencies and Crafted gear will fill in gaps and help players even out their gear acquisitions all the way from solo-questing to 40-man Raiding.

 

We have no hard locks on gear requirements for raiding in terms of attempting the instance, but it is advised that you acquire at least Veteran Dungeon equivalent gear before progressing in Genetic Archives.

 

2. Will loot drops still be the primary form of gear progression, or will players be able to upgrade via vendors?

 

Yes and yes. The primary method of acquiring better gear will continue to be loot drop from group content. We have several systems currently in development to help with the upgrade paths between tiers but it is too early for me to talk about them.

 

3. Will there still be soloist/non-raider gear progression that does not hit a dead end with the gear that is intended as starting raid gear?

 

A big part of the two new systems mentioned above is to directly address the solo/non-raider gear progression and its current limited scope. We are looking at ways to allow non-raiders to acquire gear of higher ilevel and higher quality (Legendary items) outside of the raid progression. This gear will still be below the effective ilevel of Genetic Archives and Datascape gear, but our goal is to expand the solo/small-group items progression.

 

4. If the commitment to soloist/non-raider gear progression is still there, how exactly is that supposed to work? Will raid gear have unique stats not found on non-raid gear (ie. like the difference between PvP gear and PvE gear)? If there is not a PvE/PvP-like stat division between raid gear and non-raid gear, how is the progression supposed to look/feel any different from the "funnel everyone into raiding" progression that has become the norm?

 

We are aiming to provide non-raiders with new reward paths in future patches via 2 new systems. Unfortunately, I cannot talk about them in detail just yet. One system is designed to give players additional incentives to do daily quests, public events, adventures, dungeons, and PvP and offer a new reward structure for doing so. Another system is designed to allow you to combine and upgrade rewards that are no longer good for your personal progression into new rewards that are potentially upgrades for your character.

 

5. Will gear progression be enforced (ie. you must complete the Tier 1 set before being able to purchase/equip the Tier 2 set; alternately, must have defeated Boss X before being able to purchase/equip this piece), or will it be unrestricted beyond character level (ie. only requirement is to be level 50)?

 

Yes and no. We don’t have a system in place that requires you have the previous tier of gear in order to progress into the new tier. However, we do still have requirements for certain Raid-quality vendor-purchased items that require you have killed a certain boss or acquired a specific achievement. These rewards are meant to give players a second chance at meaningful rewards if they were unlucky with item drops from that content.

 

6. Where exactly does crafted gear fit into this scheme? Is it going to primarily be for introductory level 50 gear; or will crafters at some point get the ability to craft more customizable (stat-wise) near-raid level gear?

 

Crafted gear will eventually fit into every tier of progression. Drop 3 will introduce Archivos crafted gear that is equivalent to Genetic Archives drops. The Econ team is working on a more robust system for introducing crafting progression beyond Veterans for a future patch. Our goal is for crafted gear to remain relevant as players progress through tiers of content while not eclipsing the tier it was designed for.


"Is that blood I see? Hmm, you organics are all so ... frail."

#11 Sray

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 02:20 PM

Carbine's not in the business of making single player games. Also, as others have pointed out, most of your concerns have been directly addressed, so I doubt you'd take the time to read their response even if they decided to give you one.

Carbine has stated repeatedly, both before and since launch, that they are committed to providing a fulfilling single player endgame experience because they realize that the majority of MMO players stick to solo play. That is what drew me to this game. I like interacting with other players socially and occasionally for teaming up, but for the most part I play by myself, just like 60 to 65% of all MMO players (those the numbers Carbine has stated).

 

I read the General Discussion boards; I read New and Announcements; I read Patch Notes; I follow Wildstar on Twitter and Facebook; I keep my eyes open for articles about Wildstar at the various gaming sites I go to; and whenever possible I watch/listen to the Nexus Report. These are the information outlets that I follow, and these are the places where Carbine is able to distribute information to the widest possible audience. Since the announcement of the delay of Drop 3, in these outlets I've seen information regarding attunement changes, PvP concerns, bug fixes, housing updates and the music of Wildstar. The few places where any information about the plans for my concerns managed to leak through was when they were getting called out for avoiding answering questions like mine, and/or the answer has been murky at best and were designed with monthly updates in mind (which is no longer the case as I've heard). But you're right, if they answer my questions on page 27 of a 103 page thread about itemization changes for crafters, I'm not going to read that. Carbine has given center stage to the concerns of many different groups with the game's population, I'm just saying that it's time for these concerns to get take the stage for a while.



#12 Sray

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 02:30 PM

J-Tal, thank you so much!!! This is exactly the type of information that I've found to be non-existent or scattered around the darkest corners of the forums and buried in cryptic sentences in the middle of threads about attunement. Sorry for the combative nature of the thread's title, but these questions haven't gotten much attention in the higher profile information outlets.

 

Seriously, you ought to take your answers and sticky them at the top of the General Discussion forum.


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#13 Pandaclysm

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:52 PM

Still a shame that solo/small group rewards will pale in comparison to zerg raid groups. Can't have an mmo that enables small groups, eh? Always have to have the more is more mentality. 'MURICA. 



#14 boni

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:06 PM

Still a shame that solo/small group rewards will pale in comparison to zerg raid groups. Can't have an mmo that enables small groups, eh? Always have to have the more is more mentality. 'MURICA. 

This is a not a solo-based MMO. It's a guild/raid based MMO. Carbine even pushed that agenda too far("herp derp hardcore"), but they are not fixing things by going full "crazy", now towards the opposite direction, and turning WS into Hello Kitty casual MMO. It's only natural that this MMO will not reward small groups in the exact same level that it rewards the difficult content for 20/40man. And even if they add 10man raids, it would still follow the same logic: the most difficult and rewarding content lies in raids. It implies guilds and cooperative gameplay. 

 

There's Archeage if you are into solo/small group content.



#15 guymn999

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:47 PM

Still a shame that solo/small group rewards will pale in comparison to zerg raid groups. Can't have an mmo that enables small groups, eh? Always have to have the more is more mentality. 'MURICA. 

of course they are going to pale in comparison, one requires vast more effort then the other, name me one other mmo on the market that has large group content like wildstar? (pve)



#16 guymn999

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 01:13 AM

snip

are these changes things you want to try and get in by drop three or with in this year? i realize it's ready when it's ready, but these changes are such a tease without any sort of time window.



#17 Shulzidar

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 04:57 AM

A big part of the two new systems mentioned above is to directly address the solo/non-raider gear progression and its current limited scope. We are looking at ways to allow non-raiders to acquire gear of higher ilevel and higher quality (Legendary items) outside of the raid progression. This gear will still be below the effective ilevel of Genetic Archives and Datascape gear, but our goal is to expand the solo/small-group items progression.

 

Sigh... And another brick on the wall. I'm not going to even bother to quote one of the most famous replies back on Beta to this same subject...

 

...I assume that also when this change lands, there is going to be so challenging solo content that this loot power will be needed to match it or...

 

...I can interpret this 180º change as "In the near future we will do an announcement that will kill the stability of teams required to face the content that currently rewards this items and want to be sure solo players can access them so when we remove the coordination requirement (or reduce the ammount of ppl needed to participate in them), our future new kind of custommer don't find him/herself gearlocked thus trapping those unstable teams into a permanent cycle were they loose ppl faster than what they are able to gear up to be able to keep on progressing"

 

I would really like to believe the former is the reasson... But when I add more and more puzzle pieces reading more and more recent Devs quotes here and there... I have the impression the later may be the most likely scenario.



#18 ghostpepper

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 05:23 AM

Carbine's not in the business of making single player games. Also, as others have pointed out, most of your concerns have been directly addressed, so I doubt you'd take the time to read their response even if they decided to give you one.

Anyone who makes MMOs from this point out is going to have to be in the business of selling to solo players. Even on WoW, estimates are that 40-50% of the player base engaged in non-group activities, whether it is solo pvp or solo pve.  As far as a response though, yeah. Umm, responding to concerns about future content on an evaporating game is like planning the next week's dinners on the Titanic after the phrase "did someone say we hit an iceberg?"

 

Sigh... And another brick on the wall. I'm not going to even bother to quote one of the most famous replies back on Beta to this same subject...

 

...I assume that also when this change lands, there is going to be so challenging solo content that this loot power will be needed to match it or...

 

...I can interpret this 180º change as "In the near future we will do an announcement that will kill the stability of teams required to face the content that currently rewards this items and want to be sure solo players can access them so when we remove the coordination requirement (or reduce the ammount of ppl needed to participate in them), our future new kind of custommer don't find him/herself gearlocked thus trapping those unstable teams into a permanent cycle were they loose ppl faster than what they are able to gear up to be able to keep on progressing"

 

 

Somewhere in this incomprehensible Engrish is a good point. While I like to play solo myself, I'm not really sure what the point of "solo/non-raid gear progression" would be. The only reason to have higher gear for raiding is to be able to raid harder content, i.e., higher stats to survive encounters, increase DPS speed to down bosses, etc. The current available level 50 gear that is BoE (i.e., can be bought on the market, or crafted) is PLENTY sufficient to make most lvl50 content a breeze.  Now, if you want there to be more content with harder mobs and encounters for solo play, e.g., ship missions, etc, then that's a different matter But there again, its hard to see Carbine being able to come out with more content while the ship is sinking and Carbine staff are trying not to be the last one out the door before the lights go out. 

 

To the OP: drop your subscription. There's always the next MMO.



#19 MadBlue

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 07:19 AM

This is a not a solo-based MMO. It's a guild/raid based MMO. Carbine even pushed that agenda too far("herp derp hardcore"), but they are not fixing things by going full "crazy", now towards the opposite direction, and turning WS into Hello Kitty casual MMO. It's only natural that this MMO will not reward small groups in the exact same level that it rewards the difficult content for 20/40man. And even if they add 10man raids, it would still follow the same logic: the most difficult and rewarding content lies in raids. It implies guilds and cooperative gameplay. 

 

There's Archeage if you are into solo/small group content.

 

Yeah, about that, WildStar Elder Game was touted as being as much for solo/small group players as it is for raiders and PVPers. The problem is that solo/small group Elder Game content is still sorely lacking. Everything for solo/small group players is a stepping-stone in the raiding attunement process, rather than designed with solo/small group players in mind. IMHO, they should have prioritized that for launch and added 40-man content after more guilds cleared the 20-man raids.



#20 Old Man Tek

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:46 AM


Crafted gear will eventually fit into every tier of progression. Drop 3 will introduce Archivos crafted gear that is equivalent to Genetic Archives drops. The Econ team is working on a more robust system for introducing crafting progression beyond Veterans for a future patch. Our goal is for crafted gear to remain relevant as players progress through tiers of content while not eclipsing the tier it was designed for.


I know you have a large group of morons screaming "SOLO!" at you in a multiplayer game, but looking over the rest of the forums, this idea seems detrimental. I see people quitting left and right, not for the sole purpose of, but commonly citing crafted gear being on par/better than progression gear. It's another incentive to not play the game. Even now, on the first page of these forums, you'll find several complaints about this, so I'm a little baffled as to what reasoning went into this decision.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: gear progression, solo, raider, non-raider, drop 3, itemization