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Datascape player exodus is only beginning.


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#1 Crescent Dusk

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:37 PM

You will at some point need to do something serious about its tuning if you want this content to be seen by the population and not be a complete waste of resources.

 

It not only suffers from being a 40 man, which was a bad idea to begin with (WoW already had a much larger playerbase, and it still had to retire 40 mans for the simple reason of logistics and guild management). But tuned as it is, middle tier guilds will get to clearing Ohmna, and hit this massive brick wall of difficulty and inconvenience that will likely end in a bunch of the raiding population canceling their subs.

 

It's a really impossible situation you've created, though. Either you change it to 20 man and keep the difficulty, or you have to nerf this instance considerably for the additional trouble of a 40 man roster being worth the effort. The latter means some players will be pissed because they had to clear it at its current difficulty, but other than introducing a easier version of it you will have ended with a raid that a very tiny percentage of the population will have enjoyed. And I'm worried you've yet to learn from other MMO developers' experiences that this is not a good thing.

 

It's fairly clear that with the current population of the game 40 mans are not feasible, and what's worse is that with the current playerbase left, very few people will even have enough of a pool of able players to start even attempting this content.

 

I don't understand developers who choose to throw away money that they could otherwise see added to an increased development budget by making a game that is so repellent and inaccessible to a large part of its playerbase. These kind of large person raids don't really work in the current climate of the genre anymore unless you have something akin to LFR, and I doubt people want the opposite extreme which is trivialized mechanics.

 

Keep to the 20man raids and overhaul this raid instance to 20-25 person mechanics.


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#2 Skrilla

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:36 PM

No thanks.

 

 

I'll be severely disappointed if they get rid of 40 mans, tuning it differently is one thing but eliminating 40's from the game would be lame.


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#3 Laurens

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:43 PM

No thanks.

 

 

I'll be severely disappointed if they get rid of 40 mans, tuning it differently is one thing but eliminating 40's from the game would be lame.

 

Same.

 

I appreciate it's impossible and discouraging at the moment, but rather than getting rid of the entire thing they should first attempt to fix it..?

 

The roster issues will sort themselves out. Hundreds of guild are still progressing through GA. Your claims about playerbase are not backed up by Wildstar Progress.

 

It's unfortunate that the hardcore progression guilds get 'punished' for clearing the 20 man in less than a month, but that's how it is.


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#4 guymn999

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:54 PM

i hope to step into 40 man raids this year still. the daunting task still sounds like fun to me despite the incredible difficulty in getting forty bodies to sit still and listen for a couple hours. props to any gms that are currently or have done it.



#5 Trickle465

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:29 PM

The problem with Datascape is the unlisted 1st boss - the roster boss. Guild management and raid management has had many years to mature and improve since the 40 man days of WoW - those guilds with good management and recruitment can easily manage a 40 man raid. However the problem is the player base - the recruitment pool is virtually dead. Delayed patches, bugged patches, lack lustre patches and a general lack of things to do outside of raiding has caused a steady exodus of raiders from wildstar (nothing to do with guild management or difficulty). Patch 3 and megaservers could alleviate this but only time will tell.

 

I'd rather DS be the only 40 man raid made and not be nerfed to remain the pinnacle of Wildstar raiding than it be nerfed and potential future 40 mans also be brought in at a lower level.


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#6 Galactic007

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 12:55 AM

No thanks.

 

 

I'll be severely disappointed if they get rid of 40 mans, tuning it differently is one thing but eliminating 40's from the game would be lame.

 

 

content that only around 300 people have set foot in is lame.

Its not realistic to create time consuming, expensive content for such a tiny group of people.

 

 

 

 

The roster issues will sort themselves out. Hundreds of guild are still progressing through GA. Your claims about playerbase are not backed up by Wildstar Progress.

 

 

 

his claims about the population are backed up by Carbine.

 

 there are not hundreds of guilds progressing through GA. The devs provided the information themselves on the amount of guilds in the two raids 7 groups for the 40 man and 120 - 150 GA groups in the week. even if you assume no overlap between the two groups that is only around 3200 raiders total for NA and EU. That is tiny. that is a raid community that is going to struggle to remain viable.



#7 haisenkalle

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 01:41 AM

I will be in the 40man within the next week (maybe within two weeks) ... I am exited. Really, I am.

 

What I can see as well is, that the big majority (like >95%) will not able to do that until they turn down the attunement and/or progression will do it in due course (I do not know how long this might be).

 

This is not entirely the fault of Carbine (concerning the fact to get 40 wo*men - holding them is at least 75% up to Carbine) but all the other mistakes they made like the overall bug-feast culminates in disappointment. This disappointment in turn denies (population) growth; in fact it is slowly but very surely decreasing (show me numbers if I am wrong). I know two guilds in which a main tank+healer just stopped playing. Now these players need their substitutes. Awesome.

 

Progression is hindered by bugs that decrease motivation. At a point in time you cannot continue telling people that everything will be good.

 

Byebye Voodoo.

 

Eugenic now has badge, that states when they had their last guild quit... I mean .. yeah. ^^ http://www.eugenic-guild.eu/ 4 days since last quit (09/18/2014).

 

In addition to German guilds, there are several guilds that HAVE TO merge now to get at least one foot in DS and quite a number will die within the next weeks. I am not talking about guilds that have 3/6 (they probably die as well very soon because problems).. more the 5/6 and 6/6 ones... . Kind of makes me sad :/

 

It seems to be as if all guilds that have potential players will finally be together in one guild. Awesome? Not in my world.

 

 

By the way.. we are looking for players... haha :D :-P


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#8 Laurens

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 01:59 AM

content that only around 300 people have set foot in is lame.

Its not realistic to create time consuming, expensive content for such a tiny group of people.

 

 
 

 

his claims about the population are backed up by Carbine.

 

 there are not hundreds of guilds progressing through GA. The devs provided the information themselves on the amount of guilds in the two raids 7 groups for the 40 man and 120 - 150 GA groups in the week. even if you assume no overlap between the two groups that is only around 3200 raiders total for NA and EU. That is tiny. that is a raid community that is going to struggle to remain viable.

 

This is his claim: It's fairly clear that with the current population of the game 40 mans are not feasible, and what's worse is that with the current playerbase left, very few people will even have enough of a pool of able players to start even attempting this content.

 

Show me where Carbine backs that up, thanks.



#9 Byonaa

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:11 AM

Eugenic now has badge, that states when they had their last guild quit... I mean .. yeah. ^^ http://www.eugenic-guild.eu/ 4 days since last quit (09/18/2014).

 

It should be back to 0! 4 is too high man. It was not changed this time because the quitter is the owner of the website, he used to be the one updating it xD


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#10 Byonaa

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:29 AM

 Patch 3 and megaservers could alleviate this but only time will tell.

 

I feel megaservers wont help much, atleast not in the long term... Because Carbine is still being stubborn and refuses to allow server transfers when megaservers hit.

 

Their problem is they are so stubborn that they ignore feedback such as the billion times people told them in beta about Rune Slots RNG, and they had to wait months after the game went live to fix it when they realized people were destroying most the loot they get from raids... If only they listened huh? 

 

Now they are repeating the same mistake again by ignoring players, because they lack common sense and experience, great game but outside of the Raids and Dungeons team, they have horrible management and design choices.

 

For a 40 man raid... As if it wasn't enough this game was separated by factions, it is also separated by servers for good, no way around it... Ran out of recruits in your server? GG quit the game or reroll then, who's the smart guy at Carbine that thought this will help people getting into 40 man Datascape, huh? Whoever you are, you *cupcake* me off so much because i love this game but your lack of common sense is ruining it.

 

Picture this, my guild is currently moving to PvE realms before megaservers happen because we do not want to be locked in PvP realms thanks to the genius i spoke about earlier. Now assume 3-5 months from now when our ex members are done with WoD and decide to come back to Wildstar only to find themselves guildless, wanting to join us but unable to transfer, guess what they will do? quit and go right back where they came from... because logic.


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#11 Laurens

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:44 AM

Isn't Hazak the most populated EU server by a mile?

 

Are you sure you want to be moving to the PvE server? :P



#12 Bellante

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:21 AM

Isn't Hazak the most populated EU server by a mile?

 

Are you sure you want to be moving to the PvE server? :P

 

The point is that you can move PVP to PVE, but not the other way around, so going to a pve server is actually a really smart choice. Means that they can recruit from 100% of their faction's playerbase.



#13 Laurens

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:26 AM

The point is that you can move PVP to PVE, but not the other way around, so going to a pve server is actually a really smart choice. Means that they can recruit from 100% of their faction's playerbase.

 

Not when mega servers are here  :)

 

"Q 12. Will I be able to transfer from PvE to PvP realms or from PvP to PvE realms?

No. Once the Megaservers are live, the current plan is all realm transfers will be disabled."

 

Currently there are more Dommie 6/6 guilds on EU PvP than on EU PvE, switching seems risky to me, but I'm sure Eugenic has given it a lot of thought.



#14 Bellante

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:31 AM

Ah, nice find. Hope Eugenic's seen this :D



#15 Daluu

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:38 AM

This is his claim: It's fairly clear that with the current population of the game 40 mans are not feasible, and what's worse is that with the current playerbase left, very few people will even have enough of a pool of able players to start even attempting this content.

 

Show me where Carbine backs that up, thanks.

Carbine doesn't back up that statement but personal experience from probably every player in the game does.  My guild had high hopes of running 2 20 man groups  this week.  We had 36 people show up for raids last week but raid time this tuesday, we had 24 people online.  We are only able to continue raiding through absorbing smaller guilds that cant raid at all and even thats barely enough to keep a solid group together.  And its not for lack of skill, we only started raiding a month ago and are 3/6 on a 9 hour a week schedule, with terrible player retention.  How can regular groups expect to raid in a 40 man setting when most progressing guilds I know barely are able to keep 1 group going.  What happens when all of the poach-able(is that even a word) guilds are taken and only a few guildless stragglers remain?  I agree that 40 man raiding is a lot of fun, but until Carbine can get a large enough playerbase to stay put they need to focus on smaller group content to keep the players they already have.  


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#16 Bluelight

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 12:10 PM

Their stubbornness on we don't allow server transfers from PvP to PvE because of unfairness of leveling on PvP is a crazy stance to take, mostly because it isn't even true. Leveling on a PvP server at launch was a joke (level'd on Pergo, some on Rowdoserthing) people are too concerned with quests for the most part to PvP, it is not any more difficult than a PvE server. Get rid of this asinine stand.

 

Another issue is runes, I am happy the rune system is changing...however, making people spend lots of plat and time to redo all their runes just to get back where they are right now...is a stance that needs to go.

 

I love the combat in this game, but this stuff they are taking stands on are killing the game and causing people in the raiding game to leave in droves.


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#17 Hurry

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 01:55 PM

I can understand people who are motivated at this point because in weeks they hope to start DS, they still have that excitement, but if they-you think you will not face the roster boss, whilst the top guilds in DS fight it almost constantly you are just in denial. If you as a raider at this point are in a guild under 2-3 of 6 you can almost count on switching guilds again, or dealing with some kind of merger, because not only is the roster boss hard on the 40man raid, but its a thing even as a 20man guild.

 

The truth is, and has been said before, there isn't much to do beyond raiding, and there isn't much hope for 20 man guilds under 6/6 to see DS anytime soon. So if Carbine wants to right this cart, they need to consider IMO one of two things, make DS a 20man raid, or put out another GA sized 20man, and have it be the same tier as DS. This is too say those of you who think a change doesn't need to be made, are not really relevant, you will likely stick out whatever player base compression that occurs, its not you who the changes need to be made to keep/bring back.

 

You need to keep the player base motivated, guilds who are under 6/6 looking at the next step, only see an almost impossible mountain to climb ahead of them, one that even the top guilds can't overcome. What makes a guild think, they won't suffer the same issues, what gives you the idea, your outlier players won't think the grass is greener once you hit a wall? the compression that has happened in this game, on this scale, isn't healthy, some are on their 4th raiding guild. A change in DS lights a fire in the 20man guild arena, all of a sudden, all of the endgame is viable, they can stay motivated no matter where they are in GA.

 

Its clear that the people asking for a DS change are just sayin, Hey Carbine, we like this game, let us play it. k?



#18 Daluu

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:12 PM

I can understand people who are motivated at this point because in weeks they hope to start DS, they still have that excitement, but if they-you think you will not face the roster boss, whilst the top guilds in DS fight it almost constantly you are just in denial. If you as a raider at this point are in a guild under 2-3 of 6 you can almost count on switching guilds again, or dealing with some kind of merger, because not only is the roster boss hard on the 40man raid, but its a thing even as a 20man guild.

 

The truth is, and has been said before, there isn't much to do beyond raiding, and there isn't much hope for 20 man guilds under 6/6 to see DS anytime soon. So if Carbine wants to right this cart, they need to consider IMO one of two things, make DS a 20man raid, or put out another GA sized 20man, and have it be the same tier as DS. This is too say those of you who think a change doesn't need to be made, are not really relevant, you will likely stick out whatever player base compression that occurs, its not you who the changes need to be made to keep/bring back.

 

You need to keep the player base motivated, guilds who are under 6/6 looking at the next step, only see an almost impossible mountain to climb ahead of them, one that even the top guilds can't overcome. What makes a guild think, they won't suffer the same issues, what gives you the idea, your outlier players won't think the grass is greener once you hit a wall? the compression that has happened in this game, on this scale, isn't healthy, some are on their 4th raiding guild. A change in DS lights a fire in the 20man guild arena, all of a sudden, all of the endgame is viable, they can stay motivated no matter where they are in GA.

 

Its clear that the people asking for a DS change are just sayin, Hey Carbine, we like this game, let us play it. k?

I don't think even making the DS a 20 man will keep a lot of people but it might help.  They need to take a lot of the RNG out (most of drop 3) as well as the high cost of gearing and repairing.  Or make it less tedious to make money.  When its gonna cost anywhere from 2-4 plat to reroll 1 rune slot (depending on how the megaserver economies workout) that will be a huge deterrence to people because unless your willing to spend time mindlessly farming mats its tough to make that much.  And after all that, you reroll the rune and your unlucky enough to not get a slot you need...another downer.  Even if you get the slot youd like...is 2-4p really worth 20 main stat? Not really, but after you have the gear you need thats the only form of progression their is.

 

Instead of making the aspects around dungeons/raiding frustrating and tedious they should have made it streamlined so that the real aspect of the game could be reached easily and everyone could enjoy it.  Everyone I entered this game with has quit, not because they didn't like the PvE design, class design or LAS system.  They quit because it was annoying to get to the fun part.  And after getting to experience the hardcore raiding (which is a lot of fun) there were more tedious aspects to deal with, like rune RNG or farming money for repair bills/runes/unlocking runes/flasks. 

 

TL,DR:  Hardcore should apply to the raids themselves, not the aspects of the game surrounding the raids. 


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#19 Hurry

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:58 PM

The above post by Haisenkalle pretty much sums it up, you have to keep players motivated, and its hard to do so while the game design is focused on raiding, nothing much to due besides, then bugs slow things down from every angle, AND then roster boss. This is not to say that in total this is what caused all the current issues, but it is the current state of things in the raiding arena. People are running super slim rosters and getting smacked at times because of it. DS might as well not exist, its actually only a motivational detriment at this point

 

The numbers carbine has come out with only support my point, imagine if all those GA guilds, had DS to look forward too the week after they killed Ohmna.

 

We like the game. We like it. Please adapt logically so we can continue to play it.



#20 Balf

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 03:55 PM

Be first or be food...