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Warrior Update - August


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#1 Merkal

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 08:54 AM

Warriors,

 

The time has come for another update on upcoming changes to the class.

 

In the next major patch (date TBD), we are adding in the Tank changes that have been discussed as well as adjusting the DPS rotation. Here are some highlights of what is being changed.

 

  • Jolt is becoming an on-demand ability that is great for pulls and burst threat on creatures out of melee range.
  • Shield Burst is replacing Jolt as the second Energy restricted ability and has great sustained threat and synergy with Bolstering Strike and Emergency Reserves.
  • Atomic Spear will also be useable after the Warrior’s attacks are deflected and can be used while casting abilities.
  • Relentless Strikes T8 will now trigger every 3 strikes rather than an RNG chance.
  • Ripsaw is getting a slight buff to its tier scaling but its major tiers are re-worked to grant better bonuses to damage.
  • Savage Strikes is going back on GCD, and gaining a slight CD increase for a noticeable bump in damage as well as having the T4 now work on base.
  • Whirlwind: This is getting a quite noticeable buff to base damage, tier scaling, and both major tier bonuses are being re-worked to enhance the abilities output making it very strong for AoE fights.

 

Keep an eye out for the PTR patch notes for exact numbers.

 

We’re not done yet! Here are some additional issues we are looking at for a future update (timeline TBD).

 

  • Tank Specific Utility: We are looking at 3 tanks to investigate how much total utility vs. spec specific utility they bring and will be making adjustments.
  • AMPs, we are formulating our plans for adjusting AMPs to buff or replace Weaker AMPs and improve quality of life issues.
  • Reinforcing the Warrior’s “Shield Tank” mechanics.
  • Bringing Tremor off the “bench”

 

Keep the feedback coming its useful no matter what form it comes in.

 

Thanks for reading and continuing to crush your enemies and see them driven before you!



#2 Filri

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 08:56 AM

I posted it a few minutes earlier than you :P

thanks for the update



#3 Merkal

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:03 AM

Forgot to include this in the body of the post but these changes will also be coming.

 

Due to the fact that the DPS Stance damage increases were causing some imbalances within combat, we have normalized Assault Power across all classes and Support Power across all Tanks with the following changes:

 

  • Weapons have been normalized across all Classes
    • For example, equal Heavy Guns and Pistols will now grant the same amount of Assault and Support Power
  • Assault Power gained via Primary Attributes and Milestones has been normalized across all Classes
    • A classes Primary DPS stat now always grants 0.61 points of Assault Power
    • Assault Power Milestones will now always grant 24.4 points of Assault Power
  • Support Power gained via Primary Attributes and Milestones has been normalized across all Tanks
    • A classes Primary Support stat now always grants 0.61 points of Support Power (Tanks Only)
    • Support Power Milestones will now always grant 24.4 points of Support Power (Tanks Only)
  • All DPS stance damage increases have been removed
    • Tank stances now have damage dealt penalties


#4 Cercie

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:06 AM

  • All DPS stance damage increases have been removed
    • Tank stances now have damage dealt penalties

 

Wait what?? Awww :(

 

What does "damage dealt penalties" mean???


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#5 Ezaki

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:21 AM

Give me my whirlwind and I'll be happy.



#6 Graiban

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:24 AM

So basically warrior tanks will be a clear third in the pecking order for timeline TBD. I understand you want to be thoughtful with these changes but this is ridiculous. You made one class clearly and significantly worse than its two competitors in a role that is limited to one to two players per role in most raids. This is not debatable, warriors sucked, and comparatively they still do even if we're better than we were. Then you ignored it until people went crazy, and now you're continuing to show no urgency in making the class actually desirable in any fundamental way. How the hell did the game launch with this class being non-functional, and why the hell do you refuse to acknowledge just how overwhelmingly superior Frenzy and T8PE are when compared to any tank-gated warrior abilities? This is not acceptable. The lack of communication, the refusal to do anything in the interim without us grabbing the pitchforks, the complete unwillingness to man up to the shitty implementation at launch and commit to making the reversal of that course a priority is nauseating. 

 

How long do you honestly expect us to wait? How hard is it to confer with the other class leads on the raid utility issue and come to a consensus on what each class should bring? Why is that specific solution pushed far into the future when it is just as important if not more so than the whole kit rework you just did after the threat hotfix? 

 

I, personally, am tired of it. I am tired of your lack of interaction. I am tired of the bugs. And I am tired of feeling like enjoying your game is something I do in spite of the development team rather than because of it. The way you prioritize things makes me think you've never played the genre before. Fundamentally feeling like you have no reason to play your class due to shitty design is probably the #1 reason people lose interest when they actually like the gameplay. Playing the game right now, fighting against attrition, having no motivation to actually run content until you implement the itemization and rune changes, etc is incredibly frustrating. Your refusal to show any sense of urgency as your playerbase fades away due to your apparent apathy makes no sense to me. 

 

Probably six months post-launch for my primary role in the game to be non-trash tier. Six months. Maybe, if you do it right. Why should I have any confidence in your ability to do that whatsoever at this point? 

 

If I sound combative it's because I feel combative. Fix your damn game before it becomes a footnote. Give people reasons to play. Stop ignoring glaring issues and issuing vague statements and speak like a human being. You put all this work into reworking so much about the class for the next patch and you ignore the #1 issue facing it. Give raids a reason to bring warrior tanks instead of the other two. It is a basic tenet of class design, you need a reason to be desired. Fix it first. This other crap can wait. If you couldn't see that 18% physical or 13% armor reduction was infinitely superior to a 13% tech resist debuff at launch you should be able to see it now. You tell us why any raid would bring a warrior right now? Why should we keep playing your game until you fix that? When it comes to tanks being desirable in raids is ALL that matters. We've had to fight you tooth and nail the entire way just to get to this point. Stop making it a battle and fix it. 


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#7 KingXero

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:27 AM

 

 

  • Assault Power gained via Primary Attributes and Milestones has been normalized across all Classes
    • A classes Primary DPS stat now always grants 0.61 points of Assault Power
    • Assault Power Milestones will now always grant 24.4 points of Assault Power

 

With the stance change and losing the 35% dmg, will the normalization of AP across all weapons, make up for the amount of dmg we are losing from our stance.



#8 Wyrne

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:28 AM

  • Relentless Strikes T8 will now trigger every 3 strikes rather than an RNG chance.

 

Isn't it supposed to be "Mencacing Strikes" instead of "Relentless Strikes" ? (according to the previous PTR patch notes)



#9 xXAlucard

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:37 AM

Relentless Strikes T8 will now trigger every 3 strikes rather than an RNG chance.

 

 

I'M ASSUMING you're talking about rampage procs here....

 

 

PROs:

 

- i'm glad it's not just random

 

CONs:

 

-  takes away any skill required to play the class

-  no decision-making needed at all to play DPS

 

 

 

I liked the idea of having to "react" to a rampage proc.  If you just make it every 3 relentless strikes, you take away virtually any skill that could be associated with "reacting" to a proc faster than another warrior.  it'll be the same mindless memorized rotation with literally no need to watch anything, including our resource, Kinetic Energy (after the initial ramp-up).

 

Don't get me wrong, the "random" factor isn't something skill-based for the majority of our damage as much as it's luck-based right now, and that's something I don't like, but the whole design of reacting to something that can occur at any time is what keeps the class interesting (at least for me).

 

How about keeping a "react quickly!" mechanic to our dps system that involves managing Kinetic Energy?

 

I mean, c'mon warrior design team.  Please play the class more so you understand what makes things fun / more skill-based, and don't just look at overall DPS balance.

 

#kobe


[Hindsight] Britney Spears (warrior in training)


#10 Psychowafflez

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:52 AM

So basically warrior tanks will be a clear third in the pecking order for timeline TBD. I understand you want to be thoughtful with these changes but this is ridiculous. You made one class clearly and significantly worse than its two competitors in a role that is limited to one to two players per role in most raids. This is not debatable, warriors sucked, and comparatively they still do even if we're better than we were. Then you ignored it until people went crazy, and now you're continuing to show no urgency in making the class actually desirable in any fundamental way. How the hell did the game launch with this class being non-functional, and why the hell do you refuse to acknowledge just how overwhelmingly superior Frenzy and T8PE are when compared to any tank-gated warrior abilities? This is not acceptable. The lack of communication, the refusal to do anything in the interim without us grabbing the pitchforks, the complete unwillingness to man up to the shitty implementation at launch and commit to making the reversal of that course a priority is nauseating. 

 

How long do you honestly expect us to wait? How hard is it to confer with the other class leads on the raid utility issue and come to a consensus on what each class should bring? Why is that specific solution pushed far into the future when it is just as important if not more so than the whole kit rework you just did after the threat hotfix? 

 

I, personally, am tired of it. I am tired of your lack of interaction. I am tired of the bugs. And I am tired of feeling like enjoying your game is something I do in spite of the development team rather than because of it. The way you prioritize things makes me think you've never played the genre before. Fundamentally feeling like you have no reason to play your class due to shitty design is probably the #1 reason people lose interest when they actually like the gameplay. Playing the game right now, fighting against attrition, having no motivation to actually run content until you implement the itemization and rune changes, etc is incredibly frustrating. Your refusal to show any sense of urgency as your playerbase fades away due to your apparent apathy makes no sense to me. 

 

Probably six months post-launch for my primary role in the game to be non-trash tier. Six months. Maybe, if you do it right. Why should I have any confidence in your ability to do that whatsoever at this point? 

 

If I sound combative it's because I feel combative. Fix your damn game before it becomes a footnote. Give people reasons to play. Stop ignoring glaring issues and issuing vague statements and speak like a human being. You put all this work into reworking so much about the class for the next patch and you ignore the #1 issue facing it. Give raids a reason to bring warrior tanks instead of the other two. It is a basic tenet of class design, you need a reason to be desired. Fix it first. This other crap can wait. If you couldn't see that 18% physical or 13% armor reduction was infinitely superior to a 13% tech resist debuff at launch you should be able to see it now. You tell us why any raid would bring a warrior right now? Why should we keep playing your game until you fix that? When it comes to tanks being desirable in raids is ALL that matters. We've had to fight you tooth and nail the entire way just to get to this point. Stop making it a battle and fix it. 

Fun fact warriors tanks are out preforming both stalker and engi tanks in raw mitigation and beating stalker in threat gen. They are by no means the best and by no means the worst each tank has there own purposes as they should.



#11 c0ltron

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:03 AM

I'm a bit worried about any kind of focus being put into Whirlwind without fixing the massive KE loss from using it, or the fact that you cant do anything else while channeling it. The skill would have to do some truly exceptional damage to make up for us losing time on Radiate and Kinetic Fury amps.



#12 Aari

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:27 AM

I like removing RNG from the rotation.

 

I really dislike the GCD change on Savage Strikes tho, will completly put it on the "bench" for PvE warriors again.

 

Breaching Strikes is almost not worth using currently, unless teamed up with Savage, the dmg Breaching does just bearly goes beyond using Relentless and this doesn't even factor in the reset on rampage that you get from it.

Also, as someone mentioned already, unless you make whirlwind do insane amounts of dmg, how about making it actually viable?

Here is what I would do:

 

Reduce the Rampage cooldown to a lower value (Close to what it would be when you use 3 relentless strikes).

Change the t8 Relentless Strikes to stop the decrease of Kinetic Energy. 

This would allow warriors to still react to proccs, during this time they could use Whirlwind (if you give it proper dmg) without making it so weak due to its insane Kinetic Cost.

 

I dont know if this is viable, but these changes are just flat out boring tbh. You make warrior a 2 button class without any incentive to react or pay attention. 1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2 doesnt sound like fun to me...


Alleria Windrunner - Warrior DPS/Tank

<Codex>

 


#13 Tommassino

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:42 AM

Fun fact warriors tanks are out preforming both stalker and engi tanks in raw mitigation and beating stalker in threat gen. They are by no means the best and by no means the worst each tank has there own purposes as they should.

His point is, that warrior tanking does not work in raids, and thats mainly because we cant pull reliably. I know there are tricks to make this less bad (plasma blast, no dps at start etc), even then having a warrior tank will always result in unnecessary wipes. Maybe if we didnt have the absolute worst raid debuff (most medic dps are threat capped anyway), then there at least would be some kind of tradeoff for what right now is simply put the worst tank option for raids.

 

As a comment to the notes... this is pretty much the same thing there was on the PTR few weeks ago (https://forums.wilds...le-111-8142014/). Has there been absolutely no changes since then cause even though its nice you made a post, this is quite old news... As far as my testing on PTR goes, these changes are not at all impressive. I of course dont have a raid on the PTR to test with, but it doesnt seem like the burst threat is significant  - Jolt T8 does about the same threat(a bit less) as one Menacing Strike and while it has a lower GCD, its no Code Red+T4 Recursive Matrix...



#14 Graiban

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:11 AM

It just goes back to optimal raid compositions. First, can you tank the mob and survive? If yes, then who allows you to kill it the fastest? Those are, generally speaking, the two components of assigning who tanks what in every game ever. Engineers are almost exclusively primary tanks because they generate massive burst threat and they bring a major dps increasing debuff. Stalkers are the #2 because they bring frenzy and they used to have better threat gen than warriors, who were essentially useless because we could not generate threat and we brought no comparable damage debuff. The threat issue is rectified, but that still doesn't put us into a competitive state with regards to helping to kill it the fastest. We're still massively worse. Even if we did have far more mitigation than the other tanks unless the fight explicitly requires that to survive there is not going to be a situation where we will be optimal. Besides, the combination of steadfast and the two minute last stand for stalkers renders increased mitigation a pretty farcical comparison when it comes to overall survivability. 

 

So you tell me: what is our role in an optimal raid composition, even after these changes? As the third tank on fights that require it, and that's pretty much it. And timeline TBD should scare the shit out of you. If you've taken nothing else from this launch you should at the very least be wary of vague timelines at this point. 



#15 Warskull

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:13 AM

Given how you have handled the warrior class so far, you will have to forgive me if I have low confidence in you.

 

You need to remember that warrior abilities have a base damage component that combines with the assault power derived component of the damage.

 

If you take away the 35% damage boost from stances you need to add it back into the base component of our damage.  Otherwise you are just nerfing warrior damage for no reason with this change.

 

Seriously, are you remembering to factor in the base damage part of our skills?


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#16 ThumbWarriorDX

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:15 AM

I liked the idea of having to "react" to a rampage proc.

I reacted for a long time, but it turned out that reacting is what chumps do.
I learned from the medics that the clear best strategy is simply to rearrange your keybinds in such a way as to allow you to hold down your rampage key absolutely all of the time you're in range of a boss while judiciously tapping all of your other abilities.
 

If it's more predictable it'll be less of a strain on my Naga thumb, I'm down.


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#17 Party On Garth

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:31 AM

Warriors,

 

The time has come for another update on upcoming changes to the class.

 

In the next major patch (date TBD), we are adding in the Tank changes that have been discussed as well as adjusting the DPS rotation. Here are some highlights of what is being changed.

 

  • Relentless Strikes T8 will now trigger every 3 strikes rather than an RNG chance.
  • Ripsaw is getting a slight buff to its tier scaling but its major tiers are re-worked to grant better bonuses to damage.
  • Savage Strikes is going back on GCD, and gaining a slight CD increase for a noticeable bump in damage as well as having the T4 now work on base.
  • Whirlwind: This is getting a quite noticeable buff to base damage, tier scaling, and both major tier bonuses are being re-worked to enhance the abilities output making it very strong for AoE fights.

 

Keep an eye out for the PTR patch notes for exact numbers.

 

We’re not done yet! Here are some additional issues we are looking at for a future update (timeline TBD).

 

  • Tank Specific Utility: We are looking at 3 tanks to investigate how much total utility vs. spec specific utility they bring and will be making adjustments.
  • AMPs, we are formulating our plans for adjusting AMPs to buff or replace Weaker AMPs and improve quality of life issues.
  • Reinforcing the Warrior’s “Shield Tank” mechanics.
  • Bringing Tremor off the “bench”

 

Alright, let's do this:

 

1. Thank you for removing RS RNG. The community brought this to you more than a month ago, and it's nice to see you merely saying you'll do it at some point in the future (despite that it will take additional time to implement). However, This is further problematic because you're attempting to add in other skills to break up our RS spam meaning we won't be swinging it as much. I would prefer what you did was provide a static CD reduction, not a 3 charge based reset. The mechanic should work similar to trigger fingers, and it should be balanced such that the CD still resets at 3 swings (where we presently have even odds of a reset).This being that 2 swings is not enough and 3 swings is overkill. Something like a reduction of 1.5 seconds from the CD is probably about right. (2 swings takes 1.5 seconds plus the 3 seconds bonus brings you to 4.5 and Rampage would still be on CD). Swing twice, and you've got to throw in another two skills to rotation before rampage/whirlwind/tremor comes off CD. Swing 3 times and they are off CD.

 

In the end the way you've changed this will result in reinforcing RS spam as opposed to your implied goal of breaking up the rotation. If I don't swing RS 3 times, then there was no point in swinging at all. How do you not see or perceive this as a problem?   

 

2.Need more details on how ripsaw bonuses are gonna work before I can comment intelligently. They really ought to be amazing though to make us consider dropping some of the other currently mandatory ability tiers.

 

3. Why change Savage Strikes? You obviously don't want us animation canceling with it (which is its ONLY current use) since you're putting it back on GCD. However, in doing so you don't put it in a new place or allow it to occupy a new role. How is this skill different than Breaching Strikes? Why would I ever pick one over the other? Based on your previous word choice on the forums, I honestly cannot have any sort of reasonable idea of what you mean by a "noticeable" bump in damage, but let's play this game anyway and discuss a range of changes. I believe it is safe to say that this skill will still not do meaningful damage unless the bonus applies. The bonus will not apply on bosses unless a player takes the T4 which makes the bonus apply all the time. In the current state, even with the bonus, Savage Strikes does about half as much per swing as Breaching Strikes does. it seems unlikely that "noticeable" means an 100% improvement, but word choice is not your strong suit so maybe that's what you mean. However, even then, if you make the damage comparable, you're also making the CD longer, and assuming I can T4 SS, why would I not T4 BS instead and get the CD procs? BS will still be better. Why would I ever pick SS over BS? I wouldn't. They occupy the same space, just BS is way better in that space. The only reason SS gets used now is because, quite literally, SS and BS occupy the same space in time as well as purpose.

 

For the sake of argument let's now discuss this change in view of a world NOT limited by action slots, and one only limited by rotation time. Now I've got both SS and BS on my bar, along with RS and Rampage. All of these skills have to be used independently from one another. We use Rampage whenever possible. the scaling is too good not to. BS also has great scaling, we use this often too. But we also need a builder and we also need Rampage resets so we throw in RS. SS is a builder, but it's going to be on too long a CD to use as a regular builder. It also won't reset Rampage (it might be an interesting change if it did... make the T8 of RS count SS swings as well towards reset charges that way you can get 2 reset charges FAST anytime that CD is up). The point is if the damage SS does is only between BS and RS and doesn't also have the benefits of RS, why would I ever use it? Also remember this is in a world not limited by action slots. count that in, and even having the benefits that RS has, is it really worth spending one of my 8 slots on this skill when you're trying to make me take other skills as well (ripsaw/tremor)?  

 

The case in favor of animation canceling: it requires skill and is difficult to macro. Animation canceling is pretty easy to screw up. As has been discussed at length in Shunn's DPS thread, if SS is fired off before BS, there is an overall DPS loss. This is easy to do if your action queue is full and your character keeps swinging. In order to animation cancel properly, you actually have to watch your character and wait until you see the BS animation begin before you hit SS. if these are macro'd together and you hit your macro early, SS will happen but BS won't resulting in a DPS loss. This is arguably the most difficult part of the warrior damage rotation right now -- and you're killing it. Why? You really ought to embrace the animation canceling and work the rotation more around it. Reward players more for being able to time it properly.

 

In the end this change will result in taking SS from having limited use to no use. This is exactly what you don't want to be doing. I suggest you think this one out a bit more. What if savage strikes continued to do *cupcake*-poor damage but the T4 had the same CD reset that the stance skill has? That would be interesting, but it would make warriors more bursty, and I doubt you want to encourage that. Still something to think about. 

 

4. Whrilwind is still crap. Huzzah, you're going to improve the damage. Guess what, it still sucks. It still cannot be started and stopped. It still cannot have an interrupt used in between, it still has KE decay while in use. How many times does the community have to scream these things at you for you to understand that Whirlwind is a clunky, boring, and crappy skill? Clearly more, so I'll do it again... Even if your tier bonuses make it not clunky, that means I have to switch my ability tier points over to WW to make it merely a usable skill. Tier bonuses should exist to make skills better, not merely usable. The fact that I cannot start and stop it means that if I need to interrupt in the middle of my rotation that I have to take a serious DPS loss. The fact that I lose KE while it's active means it's damage takes a serious nose dive by the end. This is not simply a matter of my preference (I have my preference as well), the skill is mechanically bad. WHY WOULD I WANT TO USE THIS SKILL? I'm not the first person to bring these concerns to you, I'm not even the 50th to bring it to you. The community has told you TIME AND TIME AGAIN that this skill is mechanically challenged, and you bring us half measures. Thank you for throwing us a bone in respect to the damage but you still fundamentally misunderstand the class you're in charge of and even designed. It's absolutely shocking how you've managed to bungle this so poorly when you've gotten many other things resoundingly right. It leads me to think the only way to explain your successes is by fortunate accident.    

 

5. Tremor: I appreciate your goals, but in light of your other attempts to bring skills off the bench, I have little faith in your ability to achieve this goal.      

 

 

EDIT: amended T8 RS argument to adjust for incorrect math. 


-Garth McGarth, the Mechari Warrior who brings the deeps does it all... on NA PVE. 1/9 Datascape.

-Law son, the Cassian Esper who heals. Dominion Reputation boss too strong. Dem world bosses are sneaky.   


#18 Party On Garth

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:41 AM

It just goes back to optimal raid compositions. First, can you tank the mob and survive? If yes, then who allows you to kill it the fastest? Those are, generally speaking, the two components of assigning who tanks what in every game ever. Engineers are almost exclusively primary tanks because they generate massive burst threat and they bring a major dps increasing debuff. Stalkers are the #2 because they bring frenzy and they used to have better threat gen than warriors, who were essentially useless because we could not generate threat and we brought no comparable damage debuff. The threat issue is rectified, but that still doesn't put us into a competitive state with regards to helping to kill it the fastest. We're still massively worse. Even if we did have far more mitigation than the other tanks unless the fight explicitly requires that to survive there is not going to be a situation where we will be optimal. Besides, the combination of steadfast and the two minute last stand for stalkers renders increased mitigation a pretty farcical comparison when it comes to overall survivability. 

 

So you tell me: what is our role in an optimal raid composition, even after these changes? As the third tank on fights that require it, and that's pretty much it. And timeline TBD should scare the shit out of you. If you've taken nothing else from this launch you should at the very least be wary of vague timelines at this point. 

My guild runs with a warrior as our second tank. he does a pretty good job. It's true when we want to push the DPS we use the engineer tank because he can generate threat so much faster, but our warrior tank still does his duties just fine. I will admit though, there are few occasions I would actively WANT to have a warrior tank over one of the others. Warrior tanks are certainly viable, they just may not be optimal. 


-Garth McGarth, the Mechari Warrior who brings the deeps does it all... on NA PVE. 1/9 Datascape.

-Law son, the Cassian Esper who heals. Dominion Reputation boss too strong. Dem world bosses are sneaky.   


#19 Thick

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

Alright, let's do this:

 

1. Thank you for removing RS RNG. The community brought this to you more than a month ago, and it's nice to see you merely saying you'll do it at some point in the future (despite that it will take additional time to implement). Though, This should be a net loss to us because forcing it to be 3 swings means we previously would have had a 60% chance by that point (better than even odds). This is further problematic because you're attempting to add in other skills to break up our RS spam meaning we won't be swinging it as much. I would prefer what you did was provide a static CD reduction, not a 3 charge based reset. The mechanic should work similar to trigger fingers, and it should be balanced such that the CD resets somewhere in between 2 and 3 swings (where we presently have even odds of a reset).This being that 2 swings is not enough and 3 swings is overkill. Swing twice, and you've got to throw in another skill to ration before rampage/whirlwind/tremor comes off CD. Swing 3 times and they are off CD. 

 

2.Need more details on how ripsaw bonuses are gonna work before I can comment intelligently. They really ought to be amazing though to make us consider dropping some of the other currently mandatory ability tiers.

 

3. Why change Savage Strikes? You obviously don't want us animation canceling with it (which is its ONLY current use) since you're putting it back on GCD. However, in doing so you don't put it in a new place or allow it to occupy a new role. How is this skill different than Breaching Strikes? Why would I ever pick one over the other? Based on your previous word choice on the forums, I honestly cannot have any sort of reasonable idea of what you mean by a "noticeable" bump in damage, but let's play this game anyway and discuss a range of changes. I believe it is safe to say that this skill will still not do meaningful damage unless the bonus applies. The bonus will not apply on bosses unless a player takes the T4 which makes the bonus apply all the time. In the current state, even with the bonus, Savage Strikes does about half as much per swing as Breaching Strikes does. it seems unlikely that "noticeable" means an 100% improvement, but word choice is not your strong suit so maybe that's what you mean. However, even then, if you make the damage comparable, you're also making the CD longer, and assuming I can T4 SS, why would I not T4 BS instead and get the CD procs? BS will still be better. Why would I ever pick SS over BS? I wouldn't. They occupy the same space, just BS is way better in that space. The only reason SS gets used now is because, quite literally, SS and BS occupy the same space in time as well as purpose.

 

For the sake of argument let's now discuss this change in view of a world NOT limited by action slots, and one only limited by rotation time. Now I've got both SS and BS on my bar, along with RS and Rampage. All of these skills have to be used independently from one another. We use Rampage whenever possible. the scaling is too good not to. BS also has great scaling, we use this often too. But we also need a builder and we also need Rampage resets so we throw in RS. SS is a builder, but it's going to be on too long a CD to use as a regular builder. It also won't reset Rampage (it might be an interesting change if it did... make the T8 of RS count SS swings as well towards reset charges that way you can get 2 reset charges FAST anytime that CD is up). The point is if the damage SS does is only between BS and RS and doesn't also have the benefits of RS, why would I ever use it? Also remember this is in a world not limited by action slots. count that in, and even having the benefits that RS has, is it really worth spending one of my 8 slots on this skill when you're trying to make me take other skills as well (ripsaw/tremor)?  

 

The case in favor of animation canceling: it requires skill and is difficult to macro. Animation canceling is pretty easy to screw up. As has been discussed at length in Shunn's DPS thread, if SS is fired off before BS, there is an overall DPS loss. This is easy to do if your action queue is full and your character keeps swinging. In order to animation cancel properly, you actually have to watch your character and wait until you see the BS animation begin before you hit SS. if these are macro'd together and you hit your macro early, SS will happen but BS won't resulting in a DPS loss. This is arguably the most difficult part of the warrior damage rotation right now -- and you're killing it. Why? You really ought to embrace the animation canceling and work the rotation more around it. Reward players more for being able to time it properly.

 

In the end this change will result in taking SS from having limited use to no use. This is exactly what you don't want to be doing. I suggest you think this one out a bit more.

 

4. Whrilwind is still crap. Huzzah, you're going to improve the damage. Guess what, it still sucks. It still cannot be started and stopped. It still cannot have an interrupt used in between, it still has KE decay while in use. How many times does the community have to scream these things at you for you to understand that Whirlwind is a clunky, boring, and crappy skill? Clearly more, so I'll do it again... Even if your tier bonuses make it not clunky, that means I have to switch my ability tier points over to WW to make it merely a usable skill. Tier bonuses should exist to make skills better, not merely usable. The fact that I cannot start and stop it means that if I need to interrupt in the middle of my rotation that I have to take a serious DPS loss. The fact that I lose KE while it's active means it's damage takes a serious nose dive by the end. This is not simply a matter of my preference (I have my preference as well), the skill is mechanically bad. WHY WOULD I WANT TO USE THIS SKILL? I'm not the first person to bring these concerns to you, I'm not even the 50th to bring it to you. The community has told you TIME AND TIME AGAIN that this skill is mechanically challenged, and you bring us half measures. Thank you for throwing us a bone in respect to the damage but you still fundamentally misunderstand the class you're in charge of and even designed. It's absolutely shocking how you've managed to bungle this so poorly when you've gotten many other things resoundingly right. It leads me to think the only way to explain your successes is by fortunate accident.    

 

5. Tremor: I appreciate your goals, but in light of your other attempts to bring skills off the bench, I have little faith in how you plan on achieving this goal.      

 

One thing I have noticed is that Carbine seems to implement long-term solutions in chunks, which is not a good way to do so. Other classes have seem this, where they implement a change to the rotation that will see synergy in the overall build at a later time. The problem is that it causes the current situation to become clunky, and sometimes a DPS loss.

 

Maybe these changes are in-line for a further review of the DPS rotations for warriors, but will not fulfill the requests we have made by themselves.

 

I definitely agree with removing the RNG of rampage, but at this point they have effectively reduced our rotation to two buttons or maybe ripsaw will just take the place of breaching strikes. I think what needs to happen is a full re-vamp of the KE system rather than trying to salvage the dead-beaten horse that is our current resource system.



#20 Graiban

Graiban
  • Members

Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:50 AM

My guild runs with a warrior as our second tank. he does a pretty good job. It's true when we want to push the DPS we use the engineer tank because he can generate threat so much faster, but our warrior tank still does his duties just fine. I will admit though, there are few occasions I would actively WANT to have a warrior tank over one of the others. Warrior tanks are certainly viable, they just may not be optimal. 

 

Yes, you can do it. The point is that by doing so you are losing the frenzy debuff brought by a stalker, who reduces physical resistances by 18%. Want the challenge on X-89 for gloves? Probably should go stalker/engineer. Have a close fight where you need to hit a dps check? Better bring stalker/engineer. The fact there is no optimal role for a warrior is a problem that has existed since the raid beta started, and it still does. Yet this clearly is not a priority.