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Itemization and stats in Wildstar - Whats being done about it

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#41 miasu

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:51 PM

So far in my experience, those amp/ability point tokens DO NOT drop for me ever.

 

I don't get them in PvP bags.

Challenges do not drop them.

And most certainly world mobs don't either.

 

There is only one single way I can get these and that is for 320-400 elder gems per off a vendor. Gee, 54 odd weeks from now I might catch up to the arena/architect exploiters who will never be punished. WOO!

 

I have played a metric ton of this game since launch btw but still these do not drop. Am I bugged? Or is it simply what ever they did to increase the drop rates was so miniscule it did absoulutely nothing?

 

#frustratedwithWS



#42 Atomicpanda

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:51 PM

3) Runes are fairly expensive and replaced too quickly in the leveling experience to be worthwhile. One of the ideas we're tossing around is potentially adding a "weakened" version of the basic runes to a vendor. These would add less bonus and be much cheaper, basically be throw-away runes, and would be more of an incentive to participate in the rune system and actually rune your items as you level up. Definitely not a final plan, just letting you know we're actively thinking about it.

Did... Did I read that right? Carbine acknowledging something in the game is too expensive and actually planing to do something about it? Oh my god! Could tens of platinum just to dye an outfit be on the way out as well? Dare I dream? 


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#43 RustyP

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:53 PM

Just an FYI:

The issue with AP being too strong for every dps class is not JTal's job.

That's the class / mechanics devs who screwed up the formulas by making the other things (Crit, etc) too weak until you stack mountains and mountains of them.

Jeff would do the items, so he would have made the raid drops that have all that crit on them, but he would not have had (any?) input on how useful crit is to each class.

 

There is a problem with crit hit / crit sev, where you have two stats which multiply together to form the one actual-dps-increasing thing. Thus, as one goes up, the value of the other increases, and vice-versa. If you had Enough points to allocate (Eventually - but it would need to be A LOT), then assuming current linear scaling, they will both end up being so strong you would end up stacking CHit to 100%, and CSev indefinitely, and ignore AP.

 

Obviously this is pretty tough to balance for, as AP affects each ability you have uniformly, but CHit/CSev depend on the level of each other as to how useful they are.

The only way is to have some kind of diminishing returns on them (logarithmic ratings), and a higher initial RoI for the other ratings (or lower for AP).

 

I'm sure it's something they will eventually fix, because they have to!, but why they didn't see this coming and fix it before they released the game really boggles my mind. This is the sort of stuff alpha testing will tell you, let alone beta testing.



#44 CoolarenosQp

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:57 PM

Shhhh. Stacking main stat rares isn't the best option until loot 2.0 comes out.

 

I mean wait... deja vu. Whats happening? Legendaries (or epics in this case) aren't worth a poop?

 

Did I time travel (and switch games?)

 

This seems all to familiar with an action-rpg type multiplayer game.

lol so true is the Diablo developers doing the itemization

 

 

Please put a fixed amount of omni slots on raidgear. 4 for epic, 5 for legendary and 6 for artifact

 

Please for the love of god just do that



#45 Malediktus

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:59 PM

Please put a fixed amount of omni slots on raidgear. 4 for epic, 5 for legendary and 6 for artifact


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#46 TehAcidBaron

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:58 PM

Just an FYI:

The issue with AP being too strong for every dps class is not JTal's job.

That's the class / mechanics devs who screwed up the formulas by making the other things (Crit, etc) too weak until you stack mountains and mountains of them.

Jeff would do the items, so he would have made the raid drops that have all that crit on them, but he would not have had (any?) input on how useful crit is to each class.

 

There is a problem with crit hit / crit sev, where you have two stats which multiply together to form the one actual-dps-increasing thing. Thus, as one goes up, the value of the other increases, and vice-versa. If you had Enough points to allocate (Eventually - but it would need to be A LOT), then assuming current linear scaling, they will both end up being so strong you would end up stacking CHit to 100%, and CSev indefinitely, and ignore AP.

 

Obviously this is pretty tough to balance for, as AP affects each ability you have uniformly, but CHit/CSev depend on the level of each other as to how useful they are.

The only way is to have some kind of diminishing returns on them (logarithmic ratings), and a higher initial RoI for the other ratings (or lower for AP).

 

I'm sure it's something they will eventually fix, because they have to!, but why they didn't see this coming and fix it before they released the game really boggles my mind. This is the sort of stuff alpha testing will tell you, let alone beta testing.

 

 

I can answer why this wasn't seen as an issue in beta, not a lot of guilds were raiding and amps provided most of your power not gear. Gear was really just there. Crafted pieces weren't really done either not to the point it is being done now.
As you could really raid in greens before the "amp nerf". After that nerf, not long after raids got locked behind an attunement.

it's things like that only came into play now in live when people really went for crafting for example, could be more were aware of it and simply withheld the information for personal or gain on a guild level but i'm not aware of that.


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#47 RustyP

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:12 PM

I get your point, but I still disagree.

It's simple mechanics. X times Y plus Z divided by A and B equals DPS. In this day and age, where every MMO on the planet has theorycrafters figuring out how to min/max everything, I can't possibly believe no-one at Carbine looked at stat weights at any point in time and realized things were messed up.

Even in Beta, I'm sure players looked at trying to max their damage output and would have gone through AMPs, Abilities, Builds, etc and come to Runes and Gear and then realized AP beat everything else, all the time.

 

 

I'm more inclined to believe they decided to weight these things appropriately for some given condition set...

but then during Beta testing or whatever, they changed so many things (mechanics-wise) that the effect of which was a complete messup of the stat conversion ratings, and they hadn't the time to run through it all again and fix it. Then they bandaid fixed things over the top of it to try to balance each of the dps specs so they were moderately in-line with eachother again, and it just threw things out more.

 

At least that would be a plausible situation.



#48 Tankanidis

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:17 PM


Please continue to give us feedback, with slightly less flames. Unless it's directed at me. Because I can take it. Because I'm not a hero. Because I'm the Itemization Lead Wildstar deserves.

 

I'm Batman.

 

I'll be honest, i've been greatly annoyed this past week with some of the stuff in the game, but this post and what you say you are doing about things took most of that frustration away. (the rest finally goes away when its implemented)

 

I look forward to you bringing in the above.

 

Thank you.



#49 Malediktus

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:26 PM

Also you need to fix the item levels of artifact weapons. The artifact weapons have about 300 less item lvl than the best legendary weapon.


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#50 RustyP

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:46 PM

Just a qn: How much is 1x "item level" ? I believe that's a very arbitrary term...

I'm sure they use something similar when they build items, but JTal has explicitly stated the addons that we players use to gauge item levels are not entirely accurate.. and regardless how you do it, the number of item levels is completely arbitrary, so saying something is 300 item levels less than something else means nothing.



#51 Malediktus

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:54 PM

item level decides how strong the runes on the item are and the total item budget for stats

 

so if the artifact weapon have about lvl 3000 and the best legendary weapons have about lvl 3300 thats a difference of 10%


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#52 RustyP

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:09 PM

That's better.. see? Now you have context to your "300". You're saying they're 10% below.

 

I still don't think you understood my point about item level being an arbitrary number, but nevermind... at least I can understand your post now.



#53 J-Tal

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

What about adventus crafted items being BiS until almost datascape gear, is that working as intended?

 

It is not. Our goal with crafting is that it should be very good, potentially (with overcharge) the BIS for that tier and that tier only. It should not be better than items a tier above it. There are two issues causing this that we are looking to address.

 

First is that crafted items have no minimum threshold for turning down stats you don't want so you can turn up stats you do. Non-crafted items do have a threshold. It's about 10% of the total budget (usually between 12-20%). So you can dump a ton of budget into the 'better' stats and make the crafted item better than intended.

 

Second is that crafted items are currently rolling way more Runes than intended. We are looking at adjusting these to something closer to:

Greens: 0-1
Blues: 2
Purples: 3
Legendary: 4-5
Artifact: 6

 

This is not definite, yet. But you will notice two big things:
1) There is almost no variance in Rune Count. (Rune elements are still mostly random, but each item's total power is static)
2) There is no overlap between quality tiers. (A purple is always better than blue is always better than green)

 

The bad news is, this actually nerfs quite a bit of items IF we go forward with it (it won't actually affect your existing items; so if you have, say, a blue item with 4 Runes, congrats, your item is OP!). The good news is, itemization balance will be much cleaner and there will be much less RNG and many more meaningful options and choice. We're still working out the details on exactly what changes are coming to Runecrafting and I'll be sure to have a thorough write up and explanation when we lock everything down.


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#54 Malediktus

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:21 PM

The change sound good to me


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#55 J-Tal

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:26 PM

Also you need to fix the item levels of artifact weapons. The artifact weapons have about 300 less item lvl than the best legendary weapon.

 

They actually aren't. I'm not sure why the item level addons say they are. We are looking at a change to tooltips to display the true effective level without the need for an addon.

 

You can actually verify this yourself by adding the inherent AP/SP values together on each item and comparing. The highest tier Legendary sword is 1200, I believe, while the Artifact ones are 1244. Also, the Artifact weapons get all their stat contribution from Imbuements which are always slightly overbudget. So they are both higher effective level and overbudget for their level. Plus 6 Omni slots.


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#56 RlyAfka

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:35 PM

J-tal delivers.

 

 

Please don't say drop 4.


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#57 Daeke

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:36 PM

2) Random Rune Colors also suck, but less so. We'll probably keep a lot of the random variance in rune colors but are looking at ways to mitigate this as much as possible. We're considering potentially adding ways to reroll colors and/or adding new runes to fill in gaps where certain colors are either extremely valuable or woefully unwanted to some players.

Amazing, amazing news. This change sounds similar to Path of Exile, whose system I absolutely loved. Really excited about the opportunity to reroll colors.



#58 Frenz

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:41 PM

This is the topic to follow!



#59 Doza

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:00 PM

These proposed changes and this increased level of developer communication on the official forums renew some of the hopes I once held



#60 Party On Garth

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:07 PM

Hmm, probably won't do #1. Might expand a few more stats and options into more Rune elements but likely not all stats to all elements.

Definitely looking at doing the second part of #2. (Should note that Grit/Health also has this issue. Health is always better than Grit and it shouldn't be.)
Definitely looking at doing #3. (I'm actually putting together some new Rune Sets for a future patch right now, and we're taking a much harder look at their benefits and power.)

 

Also running an audit on the entire Rune system and finding some very ... interesting things.
1) There are not enough options for Air, Earth and Water runes. Will have to look at Fire after the AP/SP changes, I think the AP runes might be carrying Fire a little bit.
2) There are not enough options for Brutality, Finesse, Moxie, Deflect, Deflect Critical, Health, Armor, and Shield Capacity runes.

3) Resist runes make me sad.

 

The steps are sort of a package deal. Doing step 2 w/o step 1 creates an across the board player nerf, or dungeon/raid content buff (whichever way you want to look at it). There needs to be some form of compensation.

 

I'm glad you will add more options to certain colors (kind of the theme of step 1). As I point out, water runes are effectively worthless to me. I'm strikethrough softcapped, and all they can give me is strike/finesse. But if you weaken AP/SP, don't add AP/SP to each and just expand the color options for brutality (for instance), why do I care? Brutality and AP are effectively the same thing for me, except one is a much better ratio than the other. If you weaken flat AP runes, so they are more comparable, then why do I even care that there are two different runes at all? Why not just have 1 rune? The same goes for Grit/flat HP. I agree that flat HP runes are currently way better, but if you bring them in line with each other, why do I care that there are two rune options? The choice is almost entirely meaningless except for when I'm close to a milestone.

 

Say you do these things, and make AP runes weaker such that they match up with, or are not meaningfully different than, the normal stat runes AND you also make sets actually have some value. I'm still only going to want those rune colors that give me the AP/brutality versions of the sets I want. There is, for instance, no reason for me to ever prefer a moxie rune of sweet set, over a brutality rune of sweet set so I will always try to get the rune slot colors that give me that. You can't detach the rune sets from AP if AP and basic stats are comparable because everyone uses a different primary stat. I will still salvage gear which should be better than what I'm wearing if it doesn't give me primary stat/AP of sweet set.   

 

At least with my suggestion, Flat AP runes remain a valuable alternative to the valuable sets and I can do something I like with every rune color. if there are no trade offs, I'm going to min/max till the end of time and random rune slots will still be a problem because they create a filthy min value which must be purged from the gear loadout. If AP runes exist (dissociated with meaningful sets), and they still provide me with AP at a much better ratio than brutality runes (which are attached to sets), I have to make a choice between more AP or set. You may reply, "but, Garth, won't you still aim for AP runes or brutality runes of set?" Yes, but in theory, and in my head this is a smaller choice. In my head I'm choosing between AP or set, not AP, primary stat w/ set and secondary stat with set. The set should be valuable enough that the reason I am picking it over AP is because I care about it more that the AP. While AP loss between Flat AP and brutality of sweet set would be better than Flat AP and moxie of sweet set the difference should be small enough that the min/maxing drive in my head let's it go because the amount of work required to get the right color runes on this item are not worth the marginal gain I would get.         


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